30 Nosler +P 2.0

[Ryan Avery]

The +p idea has been around a long time. DE edge trademarked their work with that name. But a bore rider throat, stepped is the same. The concept is not new. Some are fans and some aren’t including very well known shooters and smiths. To each their own.

Exactly!

Its not as simple as just pushing the bullet out farther. We +Ped a 300 PRC at Sammi length and gained 95 FPS with 2.5 more grains of powder. Try that with a standard 300 PRC the brass won't last long.

I don't know the "pressure" on any of my rifles. I go off of what the brass tells me.

 

[Broz]

I have owned a lot of DE +P chambered rifles since they came out. Over a dozen. I am running 4 right now. 338 Terminator, two 300 Terminators and I just added the +P to the 300 win mag barrel I ran for two seasons prior. They flat work and I have yet to see any loss of barrel life from them. They always have produced 100 to 150 fps more velocity with the same pressure signs. I have shot many rifles a few hundred times then added the +P throat and then was able to up the charge weight. I have done it to rifles that I had documented where pressure was showing up, then after the +P it was gone until we ran the charge weight up. Anyone that doesn't believe in the +P has probably never owned one. Haters going to hate. But trust me it does exactly what DE claims it does. It removed the initial pressure spike from the restriction of the bullet compressing into the lands. Thus allowing a smoother transition as the bullet is now in motion and the spike has been greatly lessened.

Edit to add. A +P chamber has nothing......... Nothing at all to do with adding more free bore. Thought I should add that for the haters that have never owned one and obviously do not understand what it even is.

 

[BAKPAKR]

I really like the EH1 style of stocks so I though I would give the LRH a try. I love the Element chassis but I have to pay attention and not death grip them the with magnum calibers. Which Fs up my POI. I don't seem to have that issue with stocks like the EH1 or Bravo Chassis.

@338maker sent me photos of his Nimrod stock. How about trying one of those on this rifle?

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

It's an interesting concept, he lost me in the video though after saying a 16" barrel won't fully burn all the powder??
I've never owned one but from all the discussions I've seen from guys who've developed and used stepped or "Bore Rider" throats (same design as a +P), the consensus is that

1. Velocity gain is minor, nowhere near 100-150 fps with the same pressure

2. The reduced diameter of the lands in the bore rider/+P throat leads to earlier erosion given there's less material to erode.

I'd like to see published data on the subject

 

[Broz]

1. Velocity gain is minor, nowhere near 100-150 fps with the same pressure

2. The reduced diameter of the lands in the bore rider/+P throat leads to earlier erosion given there's less material to erode.

All I can tell you from my first hand experiences are neither of these statement hold true to any of the many I have owned.

 

[waveslayer]

I have owned a lot of DE +P chambered rifles since they came out. Over a dozen. I am running 4 right now. 338 Terminator, two 300 Terminators and I just added the +P to the 300 win mag barrel I ran for two seasons prior. They flat work and I have yet to see any loss of barrel life from them. They always have produced 100 to 150 fps more velocity with the same pressure signs. I have shot many rifles a few hundred times then added the +P throat and then was able to up the charge weight. I have done it to rifles that I had documented where pressure was showing up, then after the +P it was gone until we ran the charge weight up. Anyone that doesn't believe in the +P has probably never owned one. Haters going to hate. But trust me it does exactly what DE claims it does. It removed the initial pressure spike from the restriction of the bullet compressing into the lands. Thus allowing a smoother transition as the bullet is now in motion and the spike has been greatly lessened.

Edit to add. A +P chamber has nothing......... Nothing at all to do with adding more free bore. Thought I should add that for the haters that have never owned one and obviously do not understand what it even is.

Glad to see your back, lurking other forums . Oh did I miss a message from you

And yes I'll post the link

300PRC +P Load development

I tried posting this earlier, but after replacing the graphics, it was listed on waiting for approval, so I thought I would try again with a new post. I got a custom built 300PRC +P from Defensive Edge and am trying to work up the best load for it. The +P indicates a tapered entry into the...

www.snipershide.com

Yet you guys still can't answer the pressure question. Ryan and Broz pushing sponsors, good little soldiers. Still wont show the pressure testing data. Some forums won't allow you to ask questions, it goes against their rules


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[Tullis94]

Love to see the fluted steel barrel! I don't think many people understand how little weight they lose from going carbon vs a barrel like yours! For me it makes it hard to justify the extra cost. I do think they look pretty sweet though!

As far as the +p goes my dad has one and it just plain works. I will likely +p my next rifle. I think they get plenty of customers, and a few guys on forums saying it is BS wont hurt their good reputation.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Glad to see your back, lurking other forums . Oh did I miss a message from you

And yes I'll post the link

300PRC +P Load development

I tried posting this earlier, but after replacing the graphics, it was listed on waiting for approval, so I thought I would try again with a new post. I got a custom built 300PRC +P from Defensive Edge and am trying to work up the best load for it. The +P indicates a tapered entry into the...

www.snipershide.com

Yet you guys still can't answer the pressure question. Ryan and Broz pushing sponsors, good little soldiers. Still wont show the pressure testing data. Some forums won't allow you to ask questions, it goes against their rules


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You're clearly ignorant if you think Ryan is pushing a sponsor's product. Defensive Edge is not a sponsor, nor affiliated in any way with Rokslide.

Honest questions are always welcome here. I believe your question was answered. Ryan and Broz both see approximately 100-150 fps increase with a +P chamber vs standard with the same pressure signs in big, magnum rifles. That answer seems simple enough to comprehend?

If you doubt their opinions, that's fine but if you're going to refute their points you may want to actually get your hands on a +P rifle and do your own testing. Giving theoretical opinions or regurgitating what you read someone else say on the internet adds nothing to the conversation.

 

[Broz]

Here is the bottom line for those uninformed people who cling to the "Over Pressure Myth" And I just recently had this discussion with Alex Wheeler. He agreed. Forget the fact that we are not seeing pressure signs. That's right no ejector marks, no click or heavy bolt lift , no flattened primers. Forget all that. The proof that can not be disputed about pressure is that after we experience the gain of 100 to 150 FPS with the +P our brass and primer pockets last as long as we choose to use them. We all know, or we should all know, if you loosen primer pockets in 5 firings or less, you are over pressure. That is simply not the case with the +P's. The +P is a great option for more velocity and wider nodes at the higher velocity nodes. That is the gospel truth.

 

[FURMAN]

If you still don't understand the concept, I'd recommend you watch this video from the man who designed and developed it. It DOES NOT CREATE MORE PRESSURE! It should run at the same pressure levels as SAAMI. After you watch the video, you'll understand why there's a net velocity increase.

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The genius in this thread is not going to be helped with this video because he can't even begin to comprehend physics. He has no understanding of peak vs average pressure. He is definitely not "slaying" physics.

 

[FURMAN]

Fist of all physics supports the increased velocity due to extending it in the actual time in the firing time. Peak pressure is farther along in time on a pressure curve. Second of all red neck testing has proven it for 60 years? It is simply a better way(arguably) of accomplishing the same thing increase freebore does. Weatherby has been doing it as long as I can remember or am aware of. It lets the bullet get moving more before encountering the full contact with minimum diameter of the lands.


Show me a 338 Lapua Improved that can push 300 grain Bergers 3200 without extremely tight bolt lift most likely locking the bolt. Show me one that does not trash the brass the first firing while trying to reach those velocities.

 

[Wrench]

It's pretty simple logic to follow, but very expensive to validate.....none of which truly matters;

Show me two handloaders who stuff high bc pills into a 75 plus grain case who is ruled by the book numbers.

We're all rogue.

We all shoot for high velocities with low spreads and perfect accuracy. If two nodes were of similar width, and neither showed signs by conventional handloader measurement (head mic, pin flow, bolt lift...etc) you can't seriously think the masses go to the low node.

The removal of resistance in the throat actually DECREASES pressure. It leads to a very different dwell time in the leade and the concept makes a lot of sense on high volume cases.

Increase the opportunity for combustion before the pressure spikes from engraving 100%.

I find no reason to argue about this unless the sample size is large. We've all had tubes that were fast, slow and very average.....chamber be damned.

 

[FURMAN]

No need to argue if you understand physics. Decrease pressure, add more fuel, return to safe peak pressure= more fuel at same peak pressure = more velocity.

EDITED to add when the peak pressure is moved farther along on the pressure curve and more fuel is added you are increasing the average pressure on a pressure curve. The curve is between the primer ignition and the bullet exiting the barrel. Anytime the average pressure is increased and all else is the same(same bullet, same barrel, etc) the velocity will increase. It really is that simple.

 

[FURMAN]

Ryan, sorry for adding to the thread derailment. Nice rifle but you're missing 4" from the barrel. LOL!

 

[waveslayer]

I knew my boy Furman would show! Missed you. Since I'm not slaying anything, which had me chuckle

Again, simple question, what's the pressures we are seeing , delayed or reduced? No one can answer, have they even been tested? I had a nice talk with Frank at Bartlien Barrels and they had tested these and stopped producing these test barrels for the military after seeing the results, but you guys keep on ignoring my question.

Show me the data por favor?

Oh Broz I don't work in the industry to answer your question, but if you need a deal on a Sig Kilo 8 let me know. I have 1 or 2 extras from what I bought.

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[762 ULTRAMAGA]

No need to argue if you understand physics. Decrease pressure, add more fuel, return to safe peak pressure= more fuel at same peak pressure = more velocity.

EDITED to add when the peak pressure is moved farther along on the pressure curve and more fuel is added you are increasing the average pressure on a pressure curve. The curve is between the primer ignition and the bullet exiting the barrel. Anytime the average pressure is increased and all else is the same(same bullet, same barrel, etc) the velocity will increase. It really is that simple.

Sorry to drag the derailment on..
What's your take on the effect of these bore rider throats on the rate of erosion?

I've read quite a bit from comp shooters who claimed the design led to nearly twice the normal throat erosion.
It makes sense, if the lands barely contact the bullet in the stepped area of the throat then logically it wouldn't take as much erosion to make that contact become non existent.

I'm genuinely intrigued by this +P concept, forgive my skepticism but I've found that 9 times out of 10 there's always a catch.. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone be doing it?
Not trying to ruffle feathers, maybe this should be a separate thread

 

[OSU Fisher]

I do think it works. I’ve seen it work. But I also don’t own one. I currently have a few builds in the works. My smith for these was actually mentioned in this thread. I talked to him a lot when planning these. We talked about bore rider, +p whatever ya want to call it. He will do what I want but pushed me away from it. After lots of talking I chose to continue to not own any. But again, they do work and for the ones that like them I understand. Every one has a right to like and use what they want.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Sorry to drag the derailment on..
What's your take on the effect of these bore rider throats on the rate of erosion?

I've read quite a bit from comp shooters who claimed the design led to nearly twice the normal throat erosion.
It makes sense, if the lands barely contact the bullet in the stepped area of the throat then logically it wouldn't take as much erosion to make that contact become non existent.

I'm genuinely intrigued by this +P concept, forgive my skepticism but I've found that 9 times out of 10 there's always a catch.. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone be doing it?
Not trying to ruffle feathers, maybe this should be a separate thread

There defiantly could be some merit there. I have burned down seven 300 Rum barrels. All of them went around 850 ish rounds give or take fifty rounds. I don't think my +P Rum will get past 700 rounds. But I don't build these for their long barrel life


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[FURMAN]

Sorry to drag the derailment on..
What's your take on the effect of these bore rider throats on the rate of erosion?

I've read quite a bit from comp shooters who claimed the design led to nearly twice the normal throat erosion.
It makes sense, if the lands barely contact the bullet in the stepped area of the throat then logically it wouldn't take as much erosion to make that contact become non existent.

I'm genuinely intrigued by this +P concept, forgive my skepticism but I've found that 9 times out of 10 there's always a catch.. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone be doing it?
Not trying to ruffle feathers, maybe this should be a separate thread

I think that idea of throat erosion is an incorrect vision of what is actually happening in the throat however it will erode quicker. Too what extent would be no different than with a "normal" throat. The level of overbore and rate of fire will play a huge role.

 

[Broz]

I have yet to loose a throat in any of the +P's I have built. But that said I will not really have a clear view until I do. I remember the first Edge +P Shawn built. He handed the rifle off to Sam M to hunt with and shoot to get rounds down it as they watched the throat. I don't remember the exact number of rounds they put through that old test rifle but it was significant. And we all were impressed.

This may or may not apply, because this is a different scenario for sure, but back when I ran Blown Nitro and Blown Alcohol engines we would take a die grinder and remove the top thinner areas of the pistons and blend it all down to get rid of all the thin high spots. The reason was taller and thinner areas would reach melting temps first, and much quicker than thicker parts that can disperse the heat into the main structure. Now we must remember we are only removing about .0015" off the first part of the lands. So very hard to say how much anything will or wont be effected. But what I can say for sure is, If there is accelerated erosion I have not noticed it. So it for sure is not terrible.

I typically have done the +P's to big 338's and big 30's where I was after maximum performance with heavy bullets. So I have no Idea of what happens in small calibers. I do know Shawn saw good results from his 260 Terminator. But I have no experience with anything below 30 cal.

I am very impressed with what it did for my 300 win mag so far. I shot this barrel for at least a year before I added the +P throat. The goal was to remove the top end pressure I was seeing just under max charge weight and allow me to run faster, but yet still in the large node a few grains below max. That velocity node has always seemed to be a wider node in my 300 win mags. It did just that. From that same 26" barrel I am running 215's at an average 3015 fps with a nice soft load of H-1000 and I am a good 2 or 3 grains below where first pressure signs appear. All still in the very same 50 pcs of ADG Brass I started this barrel with a few years back. And yes, primer pockets are great. More time with this rifle will maybe answer more questions.

The point being, there could be more benefits to the +P than just running top end speed. It actually may, and I think it does, offer the option to run great velocity with a lower peak pressure that happens in the first 2" of the rifling. It is documented that the peak pressure spike in most rifles happens in the first 2 inches of barrel. How could lessening or removing that and the heat that comes with it not reduce throat erosion compared to the same rifle being run on the rev chip?