30-30 Copper ammo (Barnes) penciled through Whitetail Buck this morning...thoughts?

[sniper20]

I tried Barnes TSX in a 6.5 Creedmoor once... once. Shot a smaller buck about 120yds out, perfect behind the shoulder shot. Zero expansion, bullet was recovered and it was still 100% intact. The petals on the nose were actually bent inward, making it more of a FMJ.

Barnes, along with every other "traditional" mono are built great, but need more velocity for expansion. The 30-30 just isn't the best cartridge to offer that. I know Maker and supposedly Hornady Mono offers better expansion at lower velocity, but I haven't used those. I have used Cavity Back Bullets for 6.5 Grendel and they give really good expansion at lower velocity, but they are too long to load into 30-30 (I tried with some 300BO bullets, not a fun jam to try and clear...)

If you are REQUIRED to use Mono, I would say there might be better options as Barnes hasn't/won't change their stuff. But the 30-30 was designed as a black powder cartridge, thus using soft lead and lower velocity. I shoot factory Winchester stuff in mine, but don't use the 30-30 much.

All that being said, I recovered my deer to see the bullet didn't perform. So doesn't that mean it DID perform???

Everyone expects bullets to make wound channels like they see in gel tests. I do homemade gel testing, and the bullets perform "perfect" as they show on the boxes they come in. However, bullets I have recovered from animals rarely look the same... Way too many variables to say the "perfect" bullet for X situation.

If our forefathers used FMJ surplus ammo from the wars in 30-06 ammo, harvested more deer than we do today... obviously shot placement is more important than expansion. Just my .02

 

[Ditt44]

First season using 145 LRX bullets in a Savage 110 7mm-08. @2800 FPS MV

Deer 1: Whitetail doe, 45 yards, quartering to me. Hit was middle-third behind the right shoulder, exit was about the last rib on the left. Significant blood splatter on the ground behind her. Broke two ribs, no bullet recovery. The doe ran about 50 yards into some of the most nasty blackberry-green briar-Russian olive crap you want to deal with. I crawled hands and knees most of the way to find her; then reversed course by the same method dragging her by the hind legs. I'd pull her to me, then moved back two feet and repeat. I could not even gut her in that mess until I dragged her back to essentially the same spot I hit her. Miserable. Bullet performed great. Double lung, diaphragm, unfortunately nicked the stomach. Not massive jelly of the lungs but dead deer. Blood shot was minimal but blood did pool badly under the hide and connective tissues but did wash out pretty well.

Deer 2: Whitetail doe, 135 yards. Slight angle away. Hit was middle-third behind left shoulder, exit was just behind the right shoulder. Barely any hair or blood at the spot she was standing. Immediate thought was '$hit, I grazed her belly' but the shot felt good... She leaped about ten yards and vanished is previously said thick stuff. Knowing where they move in that area, I had a fair idea of how to search. Eventually found specs of blood...now getting dark... manged to track her about 40 yards more and finally large swaths of blood where she fell. I knew she was dead somewhere ahead. Went to the house, changed, got my tractor/bucket and went back with the wife. Found her about 15 yards further down a trail piled up next to huge boulder. Bullet hole in missed a rib, exit took out a rib. Steam was rising from her when I found her. While not a major blow out of tissue on the exit side, the higher/mid-body hit needed time to fill the chest cavity. Once the blood hit that hole, it was everywhere. Same tissue damage, same blood pooling but NOT blood shot meat/very minimal at the shoulders.

Lesson learned: per many other comments on copper bullets, hit them low or you may have trailing issues. But, in all honesty, had those two shots been Core-Lokts I doubt I would have found either deer any sooner or with better blood trails. I should have aimed a few inches lower, the gun shoots these bullets sub-1/2 inch at 100 yards so there is no error unless it is me.

 

[35WhelenAI]

8 pt Whitetail, 180 or so yards, quartering away, 200 TTSX from 35 Whelen AI, 2940 MV. Made a 30 to 40 yd side hill dash and went down in a tumbling heap. Both lungs were done for. Pics of hanging, entry, exit (tattered meat trimmed from around exit, very little wasted meat). Animals react differently. Not a lack of expansion on this buck, it's just how hunting goes.

 

[Blacktailer]

Penciled through? No. You have to realize the difference in performance with monos. They expand to lesser diameter than C&C bullets and cut through instead of punching through the game (Think broadhead as opposed to baseball bat). This means unless you hit CNS or bone, there is less "shock" to the animal so forget behind the shoulder shots (I once shot a blacktail with a 235gr Barnes in the classic behind the shoulder shot with my 375H&H and he ran about 100 yards although leaving behind a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. They don't leave large exit holes like C&C bullets do but if you want DRT shoot for the neck or high shoulder.
Good on you for using monos for your kid's sake.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I tried Barnes TSX in a 6.5 Creedmoor once... once. Shot a smaller buck about 120yds out, perfect behind the shoulder shot. Zero expansion, bullet was recovered and it was still 100% intact. The petals on the nose were actually bent inward, making it more of a FMJ.

Barnes, along with every other "traditional" mono are built great, but need more velocity for expansion. The 30-30 just isn't the best cartridge to offer that. I know Maker and supposedly Hornady Mono offers better expansion at lower velocity, but I haven't used those. I have used Cavity Back Bullets for 6.5 Grendel and they give really good expansion at lower velocity, but they are too long to load into 30-30 (I tried with some 300BO bullets, not a fun jam to try and clear...)

If you are REQUIRED to use Mono, I would say there might be better options as Barnes hasn't/won't change their stuff. But the 30-30 was designed as a black powder cartridge, thus using soft lead and lower velocity. I shoot factory Winchester stuff in mine, but don't use the 30-30 much.

All that being said, I recovered my deer to see the bullet didn't perform. So doesn't that mean it DID perform???

Everyone expects bullets to make wound channels like they see in gel tests. I do homemade gel testing, and the bullets perform "perfect" as they show on the boxes they come in. However, bullets I have recovered from animals rarely look the same... Way too many variables to say the "perfect" bullet for X situation.

If our forefathers used FMJ surplus ammo from the wars in 30-06 ammo, harvested more deer than we do today... obviously shot placement is more important than expansion. Just my .02

That could be a picture to share, the petals/nose folded inward like a solid at 120 yds that didn't exit the animal on a small buck.

Technically, at what point in the animal's death did the bullet fail, kinda like you said. Bullets are what they are and ultimately man-made which introduces fallacy or imperfection. Didn't look like it should when it was done, I'm glad the animal didn't go to waste laying in the woods.

How far did the animal travel, what shot presentation kept it from entering and exiting at that distance with it basically being a solid.

I'm not questioning anything about it, glad you got the animal. Interested to hear the particulars if you can recall them.