Wind Gypsy maybe it's good I don't have a 6mm either if those are the bullets you mean. For reference we have shot a lot of stuff with a couple 308s and we get exits on pretty much any ethical shot and enough blood to find bears in thick brush. The pattern here with 223s seems to be less exits, less blood quick kills if the shot is good. The only thing "wrong" with our system is the 308 recoils a bit more than I'd prefer for kids and it's pricey to shoot.
.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.
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I can’t seem to get blood trials from bears with anything- 338’s on down. I would love to see actual constant blood trails from bears, and how people are getting them. YouTube is full of 338 and 375 shot bears with no blood trails (and lost bears).
I’ve mentioned my bear blood trail experiences. I was looking through photos and realized I photographed it and I don’t think I posted the photos. By far the best I have ever seen from a bear. 30-06 (no idea what bullet/grain) at 35-40 yards facing head on. Bear was about 130 pounds. Kind of a one off situation for sure, but it would be worth trying to replicate. This was about halfway down the trail, you can imagine 40 yards of this.
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Form knows about bear shot placement but I'd bet money half the guys on YouTube losing bears are hitting the shoulder too far forward or getting exciting and totally messing it up.
I don't know what we're doing right but here is what I've seen on a lot of black bears shot by myself, my wife, my adopted kids, and kids in a hunting program I work with. Keep in mind, interior Alaska black bears aren't huge and with kids we aren't trophy hunting. We have shot some grizzlies though and a few bigger black bears.
Apologies for thread drifting but I'm comparing what I have seen to what I'm seeing reported with 223s and trying to make an educated decision. I'm seeing all the advantages of a 223 and not arguing about it, but I don't think there is a free lunch.
308 - 168 gr ELDM, 150 gr. SST, 200 gr Nosler Partition (handloads) 150 gr Winchester Soft Point
Exits on broadside shots through the ribs. Typically there is a hole with 1-2 smashed ribs on the exit that will bleed. Maybe not enough to follow all by itself but enough to say "this is the trail to follow." The brush is typically thick enough that once you are on the right trail you can probably follow it to a dead bear. If the trail forks you look carefully for blood and continue.
Brush is worth mentioning. Where we hunt a wounded bear often pushes through brush and wipes blood off. We did shoot a black bear in a more open area once and I don't think there was much of a blood trail (we also didn't look hard because the bear was easy to see). So if you are hunting more open country in the Rockies you might get less blood then we do with lots of low brush to wipe it off.
Quartering shots sometimes have exits but we don't take those shots often.
I don't think we ever had a solidly hit bear run more then 50-60 yards with the 308. Most were 30-40 yard dead runs. Our biggest kill with it was a 7ish foot grizzly that a boy killed with my borrowed 308 and 168 gr ELDMs. It exited and the bear made it about 50 yards before piling up.
Two non-exits that I recall were a 125 gr SST bullet from a youth load. It smashed the shoulder and killed the bear fast but no exit. Really this was more like a 6.5 Grendal level of power. The other was a 168 gr ELDM that hit a bear in the spine.
358 Winchester - 225 Swift A Frame
I think this was only used on 3 bears, I can't recall. All broadside hits, all exited. One bear died in about 10 feet and I thought "oh the .358 is better then a .308. The next two ran about the same distance (30-40 yards) as bears shot with a 308 did. I'd say a .358 with premium bullets makes a slightly bigger hole than a .308 with premium bullets. But with a softer bullet (ELDM) the wound channel and exit were about the same for a 308 so I quit reloading for the .358.
6.5 Grendal - 123 gr ELDM
Exits all all the broadside shots that I can recall up to a very fat 6 foot black bear boar and a similarly sized grizzly. If you hit a shoulder bone it will be smashed up dramatically but there will not be an exit. The exits seem to bleed a bit less then a 308 but enough to find blood in many cases. I don't recall any "pin hole" exits.
375 Ruger - 260 gr Nosler Parition
I only shot a few bears with this one. I shot two brown bears (including the 8 footer in my profile pic). Both broadside hits, neither exited but the entrance holes were big and bloody. Neither bear required tracking. One died on the spot after spinning around a few times. The other turned to face me and I took a brain shot which obviously dropped it there.
30-06 - 180 gr Swift A Frame
This was only used for two mid sized black bears. One was a bloody exit from a 40 yard shot. The other was shoulder hit if I recall and I believe the bullet was lodged under the far hide.
There are definitely guys with more bear hunting experience then I have but a clear pattern is emerging
First, a 125 gr or lighter bullet should exit most black bears on a broadside hit (at least OUR black bears, maybe not a 700 lb blubber ball eating farm food down south). Shoulder bones slow this weight class down enough that there are not exits, even on smaller 125 pound bears.
Second, 150 gr or heavier 30 cal bullets exit everything up to 7ish foot grizzlies from broadside hits and from sometimes from quartering shots. Quartering shots do seem to travel farther compared to the 6.5 Grendal even when they do not exit.
Caribou are similar to bears in our experience (at stopping bullets, pretty much always got exits on broadsides). Moose do stop 358 and 308 bullets under the far hide with clean broadside hits. So somewhere between a not fat 7 foot grizzly and a moose is where this kind of bullet runs out of steam.
Back to the 223...
All that put together makes me think a 223 kill bears BUT there will be little blood to follow if they made it into the thick brush. That was my reason for interest in the 88 gr ELDM. The feedback I'm getting is I probably don't want to go much smaller than a 125ish gr bullet or the wound channel will be mostly contained within the bear which might be plenty "deadly" but no blood trail.
Having said all that... the same boys that were clobbering bears with my 308s and 6.5 Grendal love to shoot my bolt action 223 AR. We take them out to a range and they ring a vital sized gong at 200 yards from a field position all day long. If long range shooting in more open country was our thing we'd probably be using a 223 and maybe a 6mm ARC. For bears at 40 yards with this crew I like our current set up pretty well.
One 308 grizzly kill to prove I'm not some crazy guy on the internet... Note the brush behind us. Imagine pushing through a narrow game trail on that. It helps with blood trails. Often the blood is not on the ground its on the bushes.
308 kill. A 6.5 Grendal exited a similarly sized black bear (shown later)
My "backyard" bear (shot while chewing on stuff in my backyard). Pretty sure that is an exit under the armpit after the 6.5 Grendal round smashed the shoulder up. It was a bit hard to tell because I hit the bear through the neck, then hit it through both shoulders while it was flopping around on the ground the wound channels appear to have crossed. Effective but the bullets seemed to run out of steam somewhere in the middle of the chest.
Grizzly with a 308, first hit was a broadside with an exit. Follow up went through ribs from behind if I recall and stopped in the heart.
Black bear with a 6.5 Grendal. This was less then ideal photo angle but this bear was about the size of the fat one laying next to the boy on the tarp. Nice bloody exit hole.
I don't know what we're doing right but here is what I've seen on a lot of black bears shot by myself, my wife, my adopted kids, and kids in a hunting program I work with. Keep in mind, interior Alaska black bears aren't huge and with kids we aren't trophy hunting. We have shot some grizzlies though and a few bigger black bears.
Apologies for thread drifting but I'm comparing what I have seen to what I'm seeing reported with 223s and trying to make an educated decision. I'm seeing all the advantages of a 223 and not arguing about it, but I don't think there is a free lunch.
308 - 168 gr ELDM, 150 gr. SST, 200 gr Nosler Partition (handloads) 150 gr Winchester Soft Point
Exits on broadside shots through the ribs. Typically there is a hole with 1-2 smashed ribs on the exit that will bleed. Maybe not enough to follow all by itself but enough to say "this is the trail to follow." The brush is typically thick enough that once you are on the right trail you can probably follow it to a dead bear. If the trail forks you look carefully for blood and continue.
Brush is worth mentioning. Where we hunt a wounded bear often pushes through brush and wipes blood off. We did shoot a black bear in a more open area once and I don't think there was much of a blood trail (we also didn't look hard because the bear was easy to see). So if you are hunting more open country in the Rockies you might get less blood then we do with lots of low brush to wipe it off.
Quartering shots sometimes have exits but we don't take those shots often.
I don't think we ever had a solidly hit bear run more then 50-60 yards with the 308. Most were 30-40 yard dead runs. Our biggest kill with it was a 7ish foot grizzly that a boy killed with my borrowed 308 and 168 gr ELDMs. It exited and the bear made it about 50 yards before piling up.
Two non-exits that I recall were a 125 gr SST bullet from a youth load. It smashed the shoulder and killed the bear fast but no exit. Really this was more like a 6.5 Grendal level of power. The other was a 168 gr ELDM that hit a bear in the spine.
358 Winchester - 225 Swift A Frame
I think this was only used on 3 bears, I can't recall. All broadside hits, all exited. One bear died in about 10 feet and I thought "oh the .358 is better then a .308. The next two ran about the same distance (30-40 yards) as bears shot with a 308 did. I'd say a .358 with premium bullets makes a slightly bigger hole than a .308 with premium bullets. But with a softer bullet (ELDM) the wound channel and exit were about the same for a 308 so I quit reloading for the .358.
6.5 Grendal - 123 gr ELDM
Exits all all the broadside shots that I can recall up to a very fat 6 foot black bear boar and a similarly sized grizzly. If you hit a shoulder bone it will be smashed up dramatically but there will not be an exit. The exits seem to bleed a bit less then a 308 but enough to find blood in many cases. I don't recall any "pin hole" exits.
375 Ruger - 260 gr Nosler Parition
I only shot a few bears with this one. I shot two brown bears (including the 8 footer in my profile pic). Both broadside hits, neither exited but the entrance holes were big and bloody. Neither bear required tracking. One died on the spot after spinning around a few times. The other turned to face me and I took a brain shot which obviously dropped it there.
30-06 - 180 gr Swift A Frame
This was only used for two mid sized black bears. One was a bloody exit from a 40 yard shot. The other was shoulder hit if I recall and I believe the bullet was lodged under the far hide.
There are definitely guys with more bear hunting experience then I have but a clear pattern is emerging
First, a 125 gr or lighter bullet should exit most black bears on a broadside hit (at least OUR black bears, maybe not a 700 lb blubber ball eating farm food down south). Shoulder bones slow this weight class down enough that there are not exits, even on smaller 125 pound bears.
Second, 150 gr or heavier 30 cal bullets exit everything up to 7ish foot grizzlies from broadside hits and from sometimes from quartering shots. Quartering shots do seem to travel farther compared to the 6.5 Grendal even when they do not exit.
Caribou are similar to bears in our experience (at stopping bullets, pretty much always got exits on broadsides). Moose do stop 358 and 308 bullets under the far hide with clean broadside hits. So somewhere between a not fat 7 foot grizzly and a moose is where this kind of bullet runs out of steam.
Back to the 223...
All that put together makes me think a 223 kill bears BUT there will be little blood to follow if they made it into the thick brush. That was my reason for interest in the 88 gr ELDM. The feedback I'm getting is I probably don't want to go much smaller than a 125ish gr bullet or the wound channel will be mostly contained within the bear which might be plenty "deadly" but no blood trail.
Having said all that... the same boys that were clobbering bears with my 308s and 6.5 Grendal love to shoot my bolt action 223 AR. We take them out to a range and they ring a vital sized gong at 200 yards from a field position all day long. If long range shooting in more open country was our thing we'd probably be using a 223 and maybe a 6mm ARC. For bears at 40 yards with this crew I like our current set up pretty well.
One 308 grizzly kill to prove I'm not some crazy guy on the internet... Note the brush behind us. Imagine pushing through a narrow game trail on that. It helps with blood trails. Often the blood is not on the ground its on the bushes.
308 kill. A 6.5 Grendal exited a similarly sized black bear (shown later)
My "backyard" bear (shot while chewing on stuff in my backyard). Pretty sure that is an exit under the armpit after the 6.5 Grendal round smashed the shoulder up. It was a bit hard to tell because I hit the bear through the neck, then hit it through both shoulders while it was flopping around on the ground the wound channels appear to have crossed. Effective but the bullets seemed to run out of steam somewhere in the middle of the chest.
Grizzly with a 308, first hit was a broadside with an exit. Follow up went through ribs from behind if I recall and stopped in the heart.
Black bear with a 6.5 Grendal. This was less then ideal photo angle but this bear was about the size of the fat one laying next to the boy on the tarp. Nice bloody exit hole.
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