.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[omicron1792]

Never fear, the 77TMK is here...
View attachment 718589

I got this bear last night. Only squares around 7' so not a big boar, but plenty big to ruin your day if he so decided.

I wasn't interested in a broadside lung shot...boring...I have zero doubt a 77TMK makes it through the lungs/heart in that situation and kills the bear. I really wanted to test the "but what about hunting with a 223 around grizzlies/brown bears?" question that continues to come up here and there. So, yes, let's see what happens with a non-preferred shot, at least in an example of one.

I really was hoping for a full frontal chest shot but he didn't turn quite enough so I hit the point of the shoulder on a hard quartering to at about this angle, below.
View attachment 718591

Bear spun and ran about 80 yards and piled up. Interestingly, he ran to and died on the same spot another bear did last year, shot by someone else with a 338 WM, broadside, double lunged in that case. They called me to bring my dog because they couldn't find blood. I didn’t either with the 77TMK and didn't expect to with my shot choice, but wasn't concerned about that with my hunting partner. Got to give her props!!
View attachment 718595

I'll post the autopsy pics in the next post...

Legend

 

[Thegman]

As usual, it was late, I was by myself (with respect to people anyway), and knew there was at least one other grizzly, probably not far, wandering in the alders. So I didn't take ton of time, but with Wonder Dog on watch duty, I managed a few pics.

Here's the entrance in the shoulder. I was hoping to hit the point of the humerus to further test the "but what if you hit a big bone?" question, but missed it by an inch or so. No major bones seemed broken, but a big hole through the shoulder at an angle.


The bullet passed through diagonally and stopped somewhere around the ribs on the far side, ahead of the liver. I'd didn't find any bullet, but like I said, I wasn't taking my sweet time with the process.
This is the bloodshot surface on the ribs on the other side (or maybe the same side? Working fast and not paying enough attention to which pic is which.)


This was interesting to me: It didn't look like I hit lungs or heart, but still killed pretty danm fast. There was just blood soup, but from my quick inspection, the heart and lungs looked okay. I'm guessing the little engine that could obliterated all the arteries it was passing, which apparently worked really well. I guess it's hard to survive a 77TMK passing anywhere through the boiler room at high velocity. Impact would have been around 2,600 fps.




All said, I'm not saying the 223/77TMK is the best rifle possible for dangerous game. This was more about answering the question of "Will it work on something dangerous with less than ideal shot placement?". Sample of one says "Yes, it will".

 

[Thegman]

Well done! What distance was the bear shot at?

50 yards

 

[grappling_hook]

Wow. Thanks for posting!

 

[mtnwrunner]

Very nice and thanks for the data.

Randy

 

[Luke S]

Awesome work Thegman! I do wonder if the heart and or lungs were penetrated by bullet shards that just weren't obvious? Seems hard to make a hole like that while totally missing both. In any case I think a big enough hole in the chest cavity can create negative pressure and collapse lungs even if they don't have a hole in them. That was my understanding after discussing a different bear kill with a church friend who is a retired nurse.
I really need to get back to handloading.... Tikka are cool but a guy could theoretically handle all non bird hunting and self defense needs with an AR15 and 9mm.

 

[Thegman]

Awesome work Thegman! I do wonder if the heart and or lungs were penetrated by bullet shards that just weren't obvious? Seems hard to make a hole like that while totally missing both. In any case I think a big enough hole in the chest cavity can create negative pressure and collapse lungs even if they don't have a hole in them. That was my understanding after discussing a different bear kill with a church friend who is a retired nurse.
I really need to get back to handloading.... Tikka are cool but a guy could theoretically handle all non bird hunting and self defense needs with an AR15 and 9mm.

That's a good question. It was getting dark, like grizzly-thirty in the alders, and I wasn't taking my time to look as closely as I'd have liked to. From the amount of blood though, major blood vessels of some kind were wrecked.

As far as an AR-15 and 9mm, I agree. I'm there with the 9mm, and rapidly getting there with the Solo AR platforms I've been building. A gasser would definitely add to the do-it-all jack of all trades aspect.

 

[Decker9]

That is somethin Gman!, props to a job well done! Ill gladly admit, I was 100% nay sayer when this thread started, but Iv since ( following the whole thread) have changed my thoughts.

I’m pretty married to a particular .375 for this season, but next season I’m super excited to trade in my 375(s) for a .223 for moose and bear, who knows, maybe mountain goat too. Very curious on the expiry time difference I will see between the two. I don’t care about meat loss, but I do care about a fast kill. From what I’m seeing, the expiry times with these small pills seem as quick, if not quicker then my experience with .375’s, which is quite a bit.

Plus, gives me a great excuse to buy another rifle .

Thanks for posting that fine bear!!

 

[Thegman]

That is somethin Gman!, props to a job well done! Ill gladly admit, I was 100% nay sayer when this thread started, but Iv since ( following the whole thread) have changed my thoughts.

I’m pretty married to a particular .375 for this season, but next season I’m super excited to trade in my 375(s) for a .223 for moose and bear, who knows, maybe mountain goat too. Very curious on the expiry time difference I will see between the two. I don’t care about meat loss, but I do care about a fast kill. From what I’m seeing, the expiry times with these small pills seem as quick, if not quicker then my experience with .375’s, which is quite a bit.

Plus, gives me a great excuse to buy another rifle .

Thanks for posting that fine bear!!

Yeah, this was an interesting "experiment". The fact that the bear didn't get any further and/or live any longer with a 223/77TMK through the shoulder than a similar size bear last year hit with a 338 WM, broadside, is, well, interesting...

I wouldn't be surprised if I'd taken the same shot as the 338 WM'd bear it would have died even faster. Unfortunately I only get to try this experiment once a year.

 

[Turkeytider]

Not exactly on topic and no desire to hijack thread, but for those who hunt big ( grizzly, brown ) bears on a " regular" basis, what does one do with a big bear after shooting it? Being from the deep South, I`ve never known anyone who hunted them. Can you eat them? Are we looking at strictly trophies ( rugs, heads, full body mounts, etc. )? I`ve personally never shot at anything bigger than a wild turkey.

 

[JCMCUBIC]

All said, I'm not saying the 223/77TMK is the best rifle possible for dangerous game. This was more about answering the question of "Will it work on something dangerous with less than ideal shot placement?". Sample of one says "Yes, it will".

Very nice Thegman.

However, I think you failed on the "...with less than ideal shot placement?..." question. Just speaking from my experience on most animals, the route your bullet took is an excellent killing route. In my experience, it's one of the best placements to make things soupy. That shot is likely to hit the dorsal aorta. It's a great shot.

I understand what you were saying though. Congrats!

 

[omicron1792]

Not exactly on topic and no desire to hijack thread, but for those who hunt big ( grizzly, brown ) bears on a " regular" basis, what does one do with a big bear after shooting it? Being from the deep South, I`ve never known anyone who hunted them. Can you eat them? Are we looking at strictly trophies ( rugs, heads, full body mounts, etc. )? I`ve personally never shot at anything bigger than a wild turkey.

There is an article in national news about a family that got a parasite from undercooked bear meat

 

[Thegman]

Not exactly on topic and no desire to hijack thread, but for those who hunt big ( grizzly, brown ) bears on a " regular" basis, what does one do with a big bear after shooting it? Being from the deep South, I`ve never known anyone who hunted them. Can you eat them? Are we looking at strictly trophies ( rugs, heads, full body mounts, etc. )? I`ve personally never shot at anything bigger than a wild turkey.

In some places apparently the meat can be terrible. Where I am they're bottom of the list, but usually edible at least. Some people eat them on occasion. Neighbors took the meat from mine last year. They'd apparently had enough this year. Hide and skull are the only salvage requirement for grizzly/brown bears.

 

[Turkeytider]

In some places apparently the meat can be terrible. Where I am they're bottom of the list, but usually edible at least. Some people eat them on occasion. Neighbors took the meat from mine last year. They'd apparently had enough this year. Hide and skull are the only salvage requirement for grizzly/brown bears.

Good `ole trichinosis ( Trichinella spiralis ). None for me, thanks. Took too much microbiology and parasitology in college! While we`re not at the top of their menu, I always got the impression that they enjoy eating us more than we do them!

 

[Thegman]

Good `ole trichinosis ( Trichinella spiralis ). None for me, thanks. Took too much microbiology and parasitology in college! While we`re not at the top of their menu, I always got the impression that they enjoy eating us more than we do them!

I eat black bear for breakfast 5 days a week, I think it's great meat. Lots of people here like it a lot. Grizzly isn't as good, but both carry tricinosis. Not too different than domestic pork from back in the day, or wild today.

 

[atmat]

I eat black bear for breakfast 5 days a week, I think it's great meat. Lots of people here like it a lot. Grizzly isn't as good, but both carry tricinosis. Not too different than domestic pork from back in the day, or wild today.

This is the answer. I’ve not tried grizz. But trich is not a reason to avoid bear meat.

 

[z987k]

This is the answer. I’ve not tried grizz. But trich is not a reason to avoid bear meat.

Any wild carnivore or omnivore basically has trich. Even if they don't, you have to treat the meat as if it does because you really don't want it.
Cook it appropriately and it's fine.
I've not had grizz, supposed to taste terrible, I might save some for sausage this year to find out once and for all. Maybe some stew meat.
Black bear is great, except as steak. Because you have to cook it to a point that any steak would be terrible. Makes great sausage or anything that sits in the crock pot for 8 hours.

 

[z987k]

Yeah, this was an interesting "experiment". The fact that the bear didn't get any further and/or live any longer with a 223/77TMK through the shoulder than a similar size bear last year hit with a 338 WM, broadside, is, well, interesting...

I wouldn't be surprised if I'd taken the same shot as the 338 WM'd bear it would have died even faster. Unfortunately I only get to try this experiment once a year.

Are you hunting on the road system? 16 allows 2 a year no closed season, and it could really use more hunters helping to get the numbers down. 5 Black bears to.

 

[bnsafe]

you guys are turning green with envy with hunting bears, especially grizzly. Alaska must be the holy grail

 

[Thegman]

Are you hunting on the road system? 16 allows 2 a year no closed season, and it could really use more hunters helping to get the numbers down. 5 Black bears to.

I'm in 13 on the road system. Hoping they raise our limit to two as well. This area is lousy with grizzlies too.