.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Jake Leibke]

could you expand on this a bit more? What made you think this happened?

Mayne I’m not thinking about it the right way. The 205 did use up all the energy in the animal because it didn’t have enough to pass through the animal.

I’m not sure if I’ll explain this very well and maybe it’s not even a thing outside my head. Haha. I guess maybe the energy to weight ratio would be a way to describe it. The ratio for the deer with the 77 tmk the energy got used up in all the 77 grains by completely fragmenting the entire bullet so it was not found. With the 205 there was a good sized chunk of bullet left so the energy available didn’t get used up by expanding the bullet and expending it into fragments. Of course different bullet construction so that’s part of it to.

Maybe that doesn’t make sense or only does in my head. Hahaha

As to the bullet not passing through the deer at that close of a range I’m dumbfounded. I have so explanation to that. Was a slightly quartering to shot, bullet entered and exited body cavity behind shoulders. Maybe hit a rib on each side. Wife shot a deer with same gun at 120 yards with similar results. Dead deer with bullet caught under opposite hide.

Edited to add :

Before this experience with several deer with this 300 PRC that energy was king. And pair that with a rapid expanding bullet and you’d be unstoppable. Haha. After that I stumbled onto this thread and it was an eye opener. Learning the truth that it’s the speed that causes a bullet to start upsetting not the energy. Digging into it more bullet makers have a speed threshold for their bullets not an energy threshold. Mind. Blown. Make you wonder why states have energy minimums and the majority of the gun industry talks about energy when it’s really not part of the equation. Its speed not energy that causes expansion.

My theory, based on what I’ve experienced, is that with a bullet you’ll have generally the same amount of penetration across the speed range with the wound channel being more explosive and larger at the high end of the velocity range and the opposite at the lower end. With the bullet fragmenting more at high end creating that larger wound and at the lower end the bullet holding together more. I could wrong on this but it seems like that with the deer we’ve shot not o ly with the 22 cals but across the board. I know there’s another factors that play a role in penetration as well so I’m just generalizing here.



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[chamois]

Energy is not connected to killing power in any way, given a minimum impact speed to upset the bullet.

And one should never trust the supposedly added margin a larger, heavier bullet might provide. Place any outside the vitals and you have a mess to deal with.

 

[Luke S]

Energy is not connected to killing power in any way, given a minimum impact speed to upset the bullet.

And one should never trust the supposedly added margin a larger, heavier bullet might provide. Place any outside the vitals and you have a mess to deal with.

Yes most definitely. Before I understood bear anatomy I hit a black bear too far forward on the shoulder (bear vitals are a bit farther back compared to a deer). The bear rolled over and ran off. There was even a nice blood trail. But I never found that bear. I looked till dark then tried some more the next day. The trail faded out and I gave up following random game trails when I realized the meat and hide would be wasted anyway. I felt terrible. Oh yes the rifle was a 375 Ruger with Nosler Partitions. So the bigger gun didn't really help. A better placed shot or a quick follow up would have solved that problem but not a bigger gun.

 

[Nomosendero]

Yes most definitely. Before I understood bear anatomy I hit a black bear too far forward on the shoulder (bear vitals are a bit farther back compared to a deer). The bear rolled over and ran off. There was even a nice blood trail. But I never found that bear. I looked till dark then tried some more the next day. The trail faded out and I gave up following random game trails when I realized the meat and hide would be wasted anyway. I felt terrible. Oh yes the rifle was a 375 Ruger with Nosler Partitions. So the bigger gun didn't really help. A better placed shot or a quick follow up would have solved that problem but not a bigger gun.

That is a very good example that hitting the vitals is what matters.
Yes, it sucks to lose an animal.

 

[Thegman]

Yes most definitely. Before I understood bear anatomy I hit a black bear too far forward on the shoulder (bear vitals are a bit farther back compared to a deer). The bear rolled over and ran off. There was even a nice blood trail. But I never found that bear. I looked till dark then tried some more the next day. The trail faded out and I gave up following random game trails when I realized the meat and hide would be wasted anyway. I felt terrible. Oh yes the rifle was a 375 Ruger with Nosler Partitions. So the bigger gun didn't really help. A better placed shot or a quick follow up would have solved that problem but not a bigger gun.

Have had the exact same happen with black bears with 308 / 30-06 hitting too far forward. Blood trails quit and those bears survived the shot, your bear may have as well. I know mine survived because I ended up going up a mountain after a black bear a couple of weeks later, killed it and then realized it was the one I'd shot 2 weeks prior from the healed wound (and/or finding my previous bullet in the shoulder). Believe it or not, this has happened to me twice - I'm a slow learner. Have also shot a black bear with someone else's 30 caliber bullet in its hip. They're tough if they're not hit right, and not if they are. Obviously placement trumps caliber in these cases. Incorrect hits cause losses far more often than caliber/cartridge choice, IME.

 

[wirehead]

They're tough if they're not hit right, and not if they are.

Rokslide proverb

 

[Pharmseller]

Merry Christmas!

You guys keep talking about the “cool kids.”

Serious question, am I one of the cool kids? If not, what do I have to do to be included?





P

 

[Luke S]

Thegman I'd feel better if my bear had survived. But another very real possibility is that a grizzly finished it off. From a game camera I later learned a grizzly mother and cubs were about 100 yards away while I was crawling around the bushes looking for blood trails. A bit creepy.
Merry Christmas. I got myself a box of TMKs to try at some point.

 

[Jimbee]

Merry Christmas!

You guys keep talking about the “cool kids.”

Serious question, am I one of the cool kids? If not, what do I have to do to be included?





P

Cool kids don't ask if they're cool kids.

 

[Pharmseller]

Cool kids don't ask if they're cool kids.

Dammit.

 

[wirehead]

Mayne I’m not thinking about it the right way. The 205 did use up all the energy in the animal because it didn’t have enough to pass through the animal.

I’m not sure if I’ll explain this very well and maybe it’s not even a thing outside my head. Haha. I guess maybe the energy to weight ratio would be a way to describe it. The ratio for the deer with the 77 tmk the energy got used up in all the 77 grains by completely fragmenting the entire bullet so it was not found. With the 205 there was a good sized chunk of bullet left so the energy available didn’t get used up by expanding the bullet and expending it into fragments. Of course different bullet construction so that’s part of it to.

Maybe that doesn’t make sense or only does in my head. Hahaha

As to the bullet not passing through the deer at that close of a range I’m dumbfounded. I have so explanation to that. Was a slightly quartering to shot, bullet entered and exited body cavity behind shoulders. Maybe hit a rib on each side. Wife shot a deer with same gun at 120 yards with similar results. Dead deer with bullet caught under opposite hide.

Edited to add :

Before this experience with several deer with this 300 PRC that energy was king. And pair that with a rapid expanding bullet and you’d be unstoppable. Haha. After that I stumbled onto this thread and it was an eye opener. Learning the truth that it’s the speed that causes a bullet to start upsetting not the energy. Digging into it more bullet makers have a speed threshold for their bullets not an energy threshold. Mind. Blown. Make you wonder why states have energy minimums and the majority of the gun industry talks about energy when it’s really not part of the equation. Its speed not energy that causes expansion.

My theory, based on what I’ve experienced, is that with a bullet you’ll have generally the same amount of penetration across the speed range with the wound channel being more explosive and larger at the high end of the velocity range and the opposite at the lower end. With the bullet fragmenting more at high end creating that larger wound and at the lower end the bullet holding together more. I could wrong on this but it seems like that with the deer we’ve shot not o ly with the 22 cals but across the board. I know there’s another factors that play a role in penetration as well so I’m just generalizing here.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a 300 wsm shooting 205s. Don’t want to make this another “term perf” thread - sent you a PM. I got ?s. Thanks for the thorough reply!!!!

 

[Anschutz]

Merry Christmas. Hopefully someone got a .223 and a few thousand TMK (yeah right) so we have a lot more pictures next year.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[Parkerpusher]

Late to this party, new to RS and lots of reading to catch up. Last year I got tired of shooting deer with a 30-06 and used .223 just to try it, since it’s recently legal here. Cleanest kill on a whitetail buck I’ve ever made. Wasn’t sure I should push my luck, so this year I bought 2 new rifles for the first time in a good many years and went back up in the ladder in caliber (6.5 & 7mm). After reading everything here, I think I will go back to the 223 a little more purposefully next year….. as in pick up a rifle I like and pick a better projectile.

 

[Mike Islander]

Merry Christmas!

You guys keep talking about the “cool kids.”

Serious question, am I one of the cool kids? If not, what do I have to do to be included?

Sure, kid, you're one of us. Really.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Late to this party, new to RS and lots of reading to catch up. Last year I got tired of shooting deer with a 30-06 and used .223 just to try it, since it’s recently legal here. Cleanest kill on a whitetail buck I’ve ever made. Wasn’t sure I should push my luck, so this year I bought 2 new rifles for the first time in a good many years and went back up in the ladder in caliber (6.5 & 7mm). After reading everything here, I think I will go back to the 223 a little more purposefully next year….. as in pick up a rifle I like and pick a better projectile.

Very nice!
What projectile did you use?

 

[Parkerpusher]

Very nice!
What projectile did you use?

I used a 64gr Winchester power point.

 

[Billy Goat]

Dammit.

Don't worry, the ones with drugs are the cool kids.







Use to be weed, now it's a little blue pill.

 

[eric1115]

Young man got his RSS this morning. .223 compact, sportsmatch, and 6x SWFA (an old MOA one I pulled off another rifle to use while we wait for the 6x MQ to come back into stock).

He did the tear down, full degrease, loctited reassembly as well as scope mounting following the posts @Formidilosus has made explaining his processes. He learned a few things today, including that his dad can gift a rifle in a box that isn't rifle sized. He's super stoked to move up from his Ruger American 7mm-08.

 

[wirehead]

Young man got his RSS this morning. .223 compact, sportsmatch, and 6x SWFA (an old MOA one I pulled off another rifle to use while we wait for the 6x MQ to come back into stock).

He did the tear down, full degrease, loctited reassembly as well as scope mounting following the posts @Formidilosus has made explaining his processes. He learned a few things today, including that his dad can gift a rifle in a box that isn't rifle sized. He's super stoked to move up from his Ruger American 7mm-08.


View attachment 646997View attachment 646998View attachment 647001

*Super like button*

 

[roosiebull]

10E.......Yes, you are correct with the circle analogy.
Look, no one is trying to convince you or anyone else to use a 223. It is CLEARLY evident you have your mindset as to what to use. Great, use it.
You joined Rokslide today and all you have contributed to our site is posting on this thread. As I stated before, I'm not sure why you are here other than to stir the pot and I suspect other alternative reasons. This thread has been very informative to ALOT of members and it certainly is very educational, like it or not.
I can't speak for everyone else but it's obvious to me what you believe.
That being said, if you have any additional information OTHER than what's already been said, then include it. If you don't, well then don't.

Randy

I have said this a few times in this thread, but this is the most educational compilation I’ve seen on the internet, and I will take what billy goat said a step further… it’s not even really about one bullet, it’s about terminal performance in general, all of the information isn’t limited to one 77gr bullet, or the .223, it can be applied to any cartridge to get whatever outcome you desire, even if that means losing 40% of the meat to kill deader.

What is cool, is that the little .223 with no consequences when you pull the trigger is so capable with a few choice projectiles… that’s where the cartridge and TMK come in, and creates more tissue damage than most of the larger cartridges I’ve shot game with paired with the traditional hunting bullets I have always used.

I avoided match bullets for a long time, I knew they worked, but those who touted them couldn’t tell me how they worked, and my traditional hunting bullets worked, so why change to something that I don’t understand from something that works?

This thread alone (plenty of other resources since) explained to me how they work and why they are a legit option

Now I need to find a reply of 10E’s to quote, because I feel like the only one in this thread that hasn’t