.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[The Guide]

Which one? Iv seen what some of the eldm do, and while I havnt been disappointed, I still think the tmk makes the ideal wound channel. Particularly like how fast they seem to expand.

Just curious if the 80eldx behaves more like the tmk or if it’s just another eldm(which is likely correct).

Either way nice seeing more killing bullets in 22 cal.

I'm excited to see what the 22 ARC will do with the 77tmk, the 80 ELDX, and the 88 ELDM on game. I can give my 223's to my wife and kids and shoot the 'big gun' myself...

Jay

 

[Lawnboi]

I'm excited to see what the 22 ARC will do with the 77tmk, the 80 ELDX, and the 88 ELDM on game. I can give my 223's to my wife and kids and shoot the 'big gun' myself...

Jay

Skip the bolt face changes and mag hassle and grab a 22 cm. Iv scratched that itch and ballistically you can’t really argue with that 88. Was a 7mph gun for me this past week.

The 22 arc has some promise if bolt action makers decide to make a scaled down action. Maybe bat machine and UM will make us a mini action, with a tikka trigger, and a flush mag system….. a guy can dream.

 

[PantherCity]

A Mini with a proper detachable mag and good stock in 22 or 6 ARC would be a contender for sheep rifle of the year.

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention] I know you have a strong preference for detachable mags, can you expand on this? I have a suppressed 16” 223 howa mini in a stockys VG and I love it outside of the magazine, and I was about to buy an aftermarket hinged floorplate bottom metal.


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[The Guide]

Skip the bolt face changes and mag hassle and grab a 22 cm. Iv scratched that itch and ballistically you can’t really argue with that 88. Was a 7mph gun for me this past week.

The 22 arc has some promise if bolt action makers decide to make a scaled down action. Maybe bat machine and UM will make us a mini action, with a tikka trigger, and a flush mag system….. a guy can dream.

I know I'm an "outlier" but I like the Howa Mini Action. I have 2 Grendel rifles and a 223 along with just ordering a 6 ARC to make an ultralight 22 ARC/6 ARC switch barrel system. I'm really enjoying carrying my 223 Howa with the 77tmk season. Short, light, and effective. If the 6 ARC shoots really good, I might just leave it alone and use my CZ527 Grendel and make it my 22 ARC. Or I could use my Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 and make it a 22 ARC. I have lots of bolt guns with the right bolt face to work with.

Jay

 

[Formidilosus]

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention] I know you have a strong preference for detachable mags, can you expand on this? I have a suppressed 16” 223 howa mini in a stockys VG and I love it outside of the magazine, and I was about to buy an aftermarket hinged floorplate bottom metal.


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BDL setups are more finicky, less reliable, slower to reload, and offer less capacity generally.

Proper detachable mags are way less finicky, more reliable, much faster to reload, and offers variable and larger capacity.

 

[jadkins223]

Fresh batch of 73 ELDMs for deer season!


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[Hoosker Doo]

Rifle seasons coming!

Prepping cases tonight. 69 gr TMK and CFE223 are this years winners, since I'm hindered by a 1-9 twist.....

Any luck taking any animals with the 69 TMK? I'm considering hunting with a rifle that also has the 1-9 twist, and would like to know if performance is comparable.

 

[william schmaltz]

Just to clarify...
Plenty of examples exist of bears shot with tiny rifles. But often they are brain shots. What is interesting about this thread is the evidence 223 with the right bullet can do well on body shots. A lot of bigger guns are probably wasting energy because they blast through with a to tough bullet. To give an example, my 375 makes a half inch entrance wound and a 2 inch exit on smaller animals. My 308 does basically the same. The difference seems to be the 308 probably has less energy left as it exits but so what? The animals die about the same. Now a softcTMK out of my 375 might do more damage as in, to much. But that extra energy is nice on a bear because I might need to shoot through the skull or take a Texas heart shot up the stern of a wounded bear headed into the brush. Despite all the pictures I don't the a 223 would do well there. But if a 223 can handle a moose my 308 could certainly kill a grizzly. I'm just a bit hesitant about going that light. Grizzlies are the only animal that stops my 375 broadside. So the extra energy and frontal area may not be wasted. If I recall the would was wider and the bloodshot area was huge.

I admit I don’t play the bullet ABCs and I’m truly here to learn. I’ve seen a dozen Canadian moose shot (performed necropsies on probably over 50) and now double digit AK/Yukon moose. A 60 inch AK bull is double the size of a great bull that has been shared in this thread. There is no doubt in my mind or no one here that a well placed 77 TMK would make fairly quick work of an AK bull or griz. What plays on my mind is what happens with a not so great shot in a situation where an animal such as grizz potentially runs off at full speed or a moose that then can jump in the swamp. And that’s why I keep returning to threads like this with an open mind to try and gauge as I’m trying to convince myself on this round for my oldest (5yo) to take his first moose and eventually black/brown bears from the stand in a couple years, but I’m not there yet. So I appreciate everyone’s input.

For reference on toughness, first pic below is a moose my brother shot this year with 375 Ruger. Jello lungs from 250 in near dark (first pic) and he just stood there and few seconds later started walking off. Brother took a hard quarter shot to stop bull from going to water and got his femur. Went through femur, through spine, and exited opposite side from 250 yds (second picture). As far as I’m concerned, this first bullet did as good as any could’ve done breaking down the lungs, but not all bullet/gun combos can do what the second shot did. Things don’t always go as planned so it seems. Again, I’m trying to guage what happens in a similar situation (or if shot sequence was reversed) using something smaller with whatever bullet combo people are testing. So I remain open minded.

 

[woods89]

Any luck taking any animals with the 69 TMK? I'm considering hunting with a rifle that also has the 1-9 twist, and would like to know if performance is comparable.

I've killed 2 whitetails with them at 2700-2800 fps impact velocities. They make a mess, but don't expect an exit. In my case 1 did and one did not. Both deer were shot heart/lungs and death ran 50-60 yds.

 

[clperry]

11/1/23
153 yards
16 inch larue stealth
77 TMK

Not the greatest sample, as I shot him in the neck. No flinching or kicking though, and it’s always fun watching them fall through the scope.

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[rokbottom]

Has anyone used the newer 64g Winchester Silvertip? It looks similar to the XP bullet, and not the 55g Nosler Silvertip.

 

[amassi]

Has anyone used the newer 64g Winchester Silvertip? It looks similar to the XP bullet, and not the 55g Nosler Silvertip.

Looks like a nickel coated deer season xp
Would probably work great


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[PNWGATOR]

I admit I don’t play the bullet ABCs and I’m truly here to learn. I’ve seen a dozen Canadian moose shot (performed necropsies on probably over 50) and now double digit AK/Yukon moose. A 60 inch AK bull is double the size of a great bull that has been shared in this thread. There is no doubt in my mind or no one here that a well placed 77 TMK would make fairly quick work of an AK bull or griz. What plays on my mind is what happens with a not so great shot in a situation where an animal such as grizz potentially runs off at full speed or a moose that then can jump in the swamp. And that’s why I keep returning to threads like this with an open mind to try and gauge as I’m trying to convince myself on this round for my oldest (5yo) to take his first moose and eventually black/brown bears from the stand in a couple years, but I’m not there yet. So I appreciate everyone’s input.

For reference on toughness, first pic below is a moose my brother shot this year with 375 Ruger. Jello lungs from 250 in near dark (first pic) and he just stood there and few seconds later started walking off. Brother took a hard quarter shot to stop bull from going to water and got his femur. Went through femur, through spine, and exited opposite side from 250 yds (second picture). As far as I’m concerned, this first bullet did as good as any could’ve done breaking down the lungs, but not all bullet/gun combos can do what the second shot did. Things don’t always go as planned so it seems. Again, I’m trying to guage what happens in a similar situation (or if shot sequence was reversed) using something smaller with whatever bullet combo people are testing. So I remain open minded.
View attachment 621174
View attachment 621175

Depending on the bullet, something or nothing different would happen with the wound channel from an optimized 223.

That said, the ability to immediately spot your hit, prep, reset and deliver subsequent rounds on target is significantly different with the advantage going to the 223.

Animals often don’t die immediately and bad shots happen.

The ability to immediately correct and deliver subsequent hits on target with the desired wound channel is THE advantage.

With your example of a 250 yd lung shot from a 375 Ruger (I’ve owned one) and subsequent hard quartering shot as the bull walked away (dead on his feet from your description of the initial shot) but in a “he‘s still standing, keep shooting moment!“ as it’s getting dark…couple of thoughts.

Depending on the bullet delivered out of the 375R, the wound channel from the 77TMK may have been different (more/less destructive). That said, I assure you, a properly trained rifleman has the ability to deliver multiple rounds on target more quickly with the 223 and the wound channel and depth of penetration of a 77TMK above 1800 fps impact velocity is incredibly effective and destructive.

On everything.

Appreciate your willingness to participate in this thread with an open mind.

 

[hereinaz]

Depending on the bullet, something or nothing different would happen with the wound channel from an optimized 223.

That said, the ability to immediately spot your hit, prep, reset and deliver subsequent rounds on target is significantly different with the advantage going to the 223.

Animals often don’t die immediately and bad shots happen.

The ability to immediately correct and deliver subsequent hits on target with the desired wound channel is THE advantage.

With your example of a 250 yd lung shot from a 375 Ruger (I’ve owned one) and subsequent hard quartering shot as the bull walked away (dead on his feet from your description of the initial shot) but in a “he‘s still standing, keep shooting moment!“ as it’s getting dark…couple of thoughts.

Depending on the bullet delivered out of the 375R, the wound channel from the 77TMK may have been different (more/less destructive). That said, I assure you, a properly trained rifleman has the ability to deliver multiple rounds on target more quickly with the 223 and the wound channel and depth of penetration of a 77TMK above 1800 fps impact velocity is incredibly effective and destructive.

On everything.

Appreciate your willingness to participate in this thread with an open mind.

The follow up shot is definitely another benefit of your recommendation, especially for kids.

Sure, a 100 pound kid can shoot a 7-08, but getting on target a second time would be far easier with a .223.

I practice once or twice every range session shooting an immediate follow up shot as fast as possible and still get a solid sight picture and press the trigger cleanly. I can manage pretty fast with my 25 mag.

With recoil management and a .223 it would be a cinch to keep sending shots. I practice with my .22 for the rifle handling and trigger press, and it is fun to send them at 300 and try to get the second in the air before the first hits the target.

 

[pbroski]

I've killed grizzlies with 300 WM, 30-06, 308 Win and 300 HAM'R. Used hard bullets (ETips e.g.) and soft bullets (BTs, e.g.). None died noticeably slower than the others. Actually, the fastest kill was probably from a 168 BT from a 30-06. Broadside and no exit. Probably acted like a giant 77 TMK.

You'll kill grizzlies just fine with a 308. I plan on testing a 77 TMK on one this spring.

This is a very interesting thread! I'm looking forward to the reports of the use of .223's on grizzlies and brown bears to come in. That would really be something if they worked reliably. It would be great if all you needed was a .223 for anything in North America. Based on my own experience I'm skeptical at this point but am willing to listen and learn from others, so keep the info coming.

 

[Tahr]

I mentioned in a previous post that I thought I could post a kill shot autopsy pic using any of the 3 heavy ELD's and the TMK and no would be able to tell the difference.
Well yesterday I shot 4 deer at distances from 150 yards to 280 yards using the .223 and 52 grain Berger jacketed custom bullets (nothing special about them and probably very similar to Berger's own bullets).
All pretty much dropped on the spot or ran less than 10 yards (one was neck shot).
So...there are many bullets that will do the job. It doesn't have to be a TMK - although using them gives a bit more security and margin for error. But a bad shot is still a bad shot no matter the bullet. I think the value of this thread has not been that there is one supreme magic bullet called a TMK but that there are a number of bullets that are certainly "good enough" when launched from a .223 case.
As I said, looking at the lungs of this kill I'm sure I could have passed it off as being from a 77TMK and no one would have questioned it.

Here are pics of one of the 4, this one shot at 150 yards.
The bullet passed right through the deer (lung shot on purpose).
Left to right pic:
Entry through the ribs with shoulder and blood shot meat peeled off.
Exit through the ribs from the inside
Entry through the ribs from the inside
Lung and organ damage
Exit

 

[SouthPaw]

The follow up shot is definitely another benefit of your recommendation, especially for kids.

Especially for a lot of grown men, too. I've shot with a ton of guys/hunters who can "handle recoil" that actually have a horrible flinch, its not even funny. They shoot the properly equipped 223 and start pounding targets at distance seeing it in the scope and its like a light bulb goes off.

 

[Smenning]

The combo works!! “RSS” x 77TMK 2416FPS impact velocity. Didn’t go 5 yds.

 

[DJL2]

For those asking about the 69 TMK, 73/75/80 ELD-M...

If you've checked out Terminal Ballistic Research / Nathan Foster's stuff you will note he recommends the 69 TMK, 77 TMK, 73 ELD-M, 75 ELD-M, and 80 ELD-M for use on big game in the .223 Rem... and that's pretty much it. He is squarely in the "bring enough gun" camp, and routinely advocates for larger calibers, particularly for use at longer ranges. That he endorses the .223 Rem for use on big game at all, and with those bullets specifically, may be worth your consideration.

 

[Tahr]

For those asking about the 69 TMK, 73/75/80 ELD-M...

If you've checked out Terminal Ballistic Research / Nathan Foster's stuff you will note he recommends the 69 TMK, 77 TMK, 73 ELD-M, 75 ELD-M, and 80 ELD-M for use on big game in the .223 Rem... and that's pretty much it. He is squarely in the "bring enough gun" camp, and routinely advocates for larger calibers, particularly for use at longer ranges. That he endorses the .223 Rem for use on big game at all, and with those bullets specifically, may be worth your consideration.

You can safely assume that he has been informed by this very thread. Lots of his stuff comes off the internet. It's often easy to track his sources. Doesn't make him wrong though, or always right.