.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[KyleR1985]

Yes, lack of heart pumping contributed to the lack of blood trail. But the lack of an exit wound also heavily contributed to it. I've blown hearts out on deer before with other rifles and still get some level of blood trail.

I also did hear the direction he ran but I don't believe he crashed. The ground was not kicked up where he was laying and he was on his belly with rear legs tucked under him. Also he was facing his back track.

Like I said, I was within a few yards of him a couple times. His direction of travel was within 10 yards of what I marked on GPS immediately after the shot.

Furthermore if you talk to any dog tracker they will tell you that grid searching is the best way to push a gut shot deer and render them unfindable. Without much hit evidence, it's hard to know what kind of hit you're dealing with. The mule kick and the fact that this deer's back half was covered at the shot were the only reasons I gridded at all.

Again, I'm not attacking the tmks. Just giving another data point.

The best time to decide whether or not you're tracking with a dog is prior to ever going near shot site or trailing a deer. You're right about this.

Grid pattern is vegetation and terrain specific. If you walked past the deer, your grid pattern is too big.

Most of the deer I shoot are in or near thicket or CRP. If I don't hear the deer crash, or see it die, and I don't know with a high degree of certainty where I impacted the deer, and a dog tracker is available, I'm calling them before I look. If they're not available, shot circumstances dictate when to start looking. And if tracking turns into grid searching, the grid pattern size can't exceed the ability to see your last pass or step on the animal. Otherwise, grid searching is pointless, and worse - like you said - will make things harder on a dog.


Before I spent time actually thinking about how the grid search should be executed, I ended up walking past some deer. Since deciding to really do it right, if the deer is inside the search area, it's found.

It is totally unrelated to bullets, and their terminal performance. But if a grid search is executed correctly, it should be 100% successful. Given the spirit of this thread, a grid search failure is one that ends with a deer being inside the grid search area, that doesn't have eyes laid on it prior to search ending.


If you walked past a deer multiple times grid searching, that is a failure.

Edit - this isn't a personal attack. You are not a failure. The grid search was. Welcome to Costco, I love you.

 

[np307]

The best time to decide whether or not you're tracking with a dog is prior to ever going near shot site or trailing a deer. You're right about this.

Grid pattern is vegetation and terrain specific. If you walked past the deer, your grid pattern is too big.

Most of the deer I shoot are in or near thicket or CRP. If I don't hear the deer crash, or see it die, and I don't know with a high degree of certainty where I impacted the deer, and a dog tracker is available, I'm calling them before I look. If they're not available, shot circumstances dictate when to start looking. And if tracking turns into grid searching, the grid pattern size can't exceed the ability to see your last pass or step on the animal. Otherwise, grid searching is pointless, and worse - like you said - will make things harder on a dog.


Before I spent time actually thinking about how the grid search should be executed, I ended up walking past some deer. Since deciding to really do it right, if the deer is inside the search area, it's found.

It is totally unrelated to bullets, and their terminal performance. But if a grid search is executed correctly, it should be 100% successful. Given the spirit of this thread, a grid search failure is one that ends with a deer being inside the grid search area, that doesn't have eyes laid on it prior to search ending.


If you walked past a deer multiple times grid searching, that is a failure.

Edit - this isn't a personal attack. You are not a failure. The grid search was. Welcome to Costco, I love you.

Yeah I agree that the grid search was a failure. But I only know that in hindsight. In the moment I was thinking "maybe I did hit farther back than I thought and it was really a liver hit so since i didn't quickly find it I need to get out of here before I make it too hard for my dog."

 

[primarchtimmy]

.........



I'm seeing a pattern

Oh and what's that? Where I'm at, I don't have the lexury to shoot under 200

 

[KyleR1985]

Yeah I agree that the grid search was a failure. But I only know that in hindsight. In the moment I was thinking "maybe I did hit farther back than I thought and it was really a liver hit so since i didn't quickly find it I need to get out of here before I make it too hard for my dog."

Yup.

Mostly saying something to help anyone who may think they're helping by tromping all over. If not done exactly right, it indeed does more harm than good.

It's nice to learn and have venison at the end of the lesson!

 

[Veloci_Wrench]

I can finally add to the data pool.

I built this Howa Mini spring 2023 because of this thread. 18" barrel, Stockys VG Mini stock. Shooting AAC's 77 TMK load. I get 2693 fps average velocity, measured with Garmin chrono. Last year was a bust hunting in VT, but now I'm back South in my home state.

This guy came out at 300 yards, and was quartering towards me. I hit him just behind the shoulder, but should have put it just before the shoulder. Impact velocity was about 2135 fps according to Hornady calc. He crossed the back of the knoll out of sight, ultimately going 40-50 yards and then folded up in some thick brush. He was easy enough to find. I found him alive, and he would have died within 10 minutes, but I put another bullet in his neck.

The first bullet blew out the back of his lungs, and front of liver. Liver looked like a grenade went off inside him. My buddy took the necropsy photos while I dressed him. He was a doubter of .223 this whole time, but couldn't believe his eyes, and admitted that the damage in my deer looked more severe than the deer he just killed day before with a 6.5mm Berger projectile.

So after 18 months, I've finally made a kill with this rig. Easily the most satisfying gun to hunt with.

 

[brockel]

77 TMK at 417 yards started life at 3150fps. Finger is in entrance next picture is exit with bullet up against the hide. Daughters first deer

 

[Tell]

That’s a heck of a first deer! Congratulations to you both

 

[bcmntgoathunter.]

Congrats very nice first deer , was that a 223 ai?

 

[hunterjmj]

77 TMK at 417 yards started life at 3150fps. Finger is in entrance next picture is exit with bullet up against the hide. Daughters first deer
View attachment 797235
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That is one heck of a first buck! Congrats to both of you! Now, you have to find her a bigger one next year.

 

[brockel]

Congrats very nice first deer , was that a 223 ai?

No it’s an 18” 22 creed. Figured I’d post it since this is basically a 77 TMK thing now

 

[bcmntgoathunter.]

No it’s an 18” 22 creed. Figured I’d post it since this is basically a 77 TMK thing now

Right on was just curious I'm about a week away from getting my 22" 223 ai and I still got about 1.5 to months wait on my 24" 22 creed.

 

[primarchtimmy]

You are lobbing rounds beyond what your skills are. When was the last time you hit an animal where you wanted to, on the first shot? "Sighters" dont count...

I bet there are guys with bows in your area that would argue about not being able to get inside of 200yrds.

Either way. You need to learn how to shoot. Or learn how to hunt.

Right, I'll make sure to message you before making my next shot for approval.

Again where I'm at, winds will shift unexpectedly due to the terrain and altitude. I do long range shooting. It's a constant factor on my Land.

Except for experts on here. Apparently, everyone can make the perfect shot under all conditions.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Right, I'll make sure to message you before making my next shot for approval.

Again where I'm at, winds will shift unexpectedly due to the terrain and altitude. I do long range shooting. It's a constant factor on my Land.

Except for experts on here. Apparently, everyone can make the perfect shot under all conditions.

You should participate in the cold bore challenge next year.

 

[Ajsomp]

77 TMK at 417 yards started life at 3150fps. Finger is in entrance next picture is exit with bullet up against the hide. Daughters first deer
View attachment 797235
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View attachment 797238

great deer and great shooting!

 

[deer_hunter132]

Doe had some ground shrinkage lol
Qtr away down hill shot, looks like it exited thru the top of the neck.

 

[Trackselk]

@Formidilosus
I would greatly appreciate your input on 2 DRT 79gr questions please.
-what percentage of effectiveness would you ascribe the DRT 79 in comparison to the 77 TMK? At roughly the same impact velocity.

-do you think the 79 DRT is enough medicine for elk with lung shots out of a hot (reload) 223? I guess an accidental direct shoulder hit would be a secondary question, although I've never hit an elk in the shoulder nuckle, and I'm a lot better than when I started...

Edit: the 223 would only be 16", so I guess I'm just going to be about standard velocity, or maybe slightly less than factory ammo.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus
I would greatly appreciate your input on 2 DRT 79gr questions please.
-what percentage of effectiveness would you ascribe the DRT 79 in comparison to the 77 TMK? At roughly the same impact velocity.

They behave differently. However the 79gr DRT has shown to be extremely effective. They are the only non lead commercially available projectiles that are in the same realm as good heavy for caliber fragmenting match bullets.

-do you think the 79 DRT is enough medicine for elk with lung shots out of a hot (reload) 223? I guess an accidental direct shoulder hit would be a secondary question, although I've never hit an elk in the shoulder nuckle, and I'm a lot better than when I started...

Without question. Put them in the front half. A shoulder is nothing.

 

[Trackselk]

They behave differently. However the 79gr DRT has shown to be extremely effective. They are the only non lead commercially available projectiles that are in the same realm as good heavy for caliber fragmenting match bullets.




Without question. Put them in the front half. A shoulder is nothing.

Thanks as always!

 

[bcmntgoathunter.]

Thanks as always!

Hey formidi what do you think of the 75 berger vld or the 80.5 fullbore I know guys who have great success in the 22 creedmore but what do you think of their use in a 223 ai with 22"-24" barrel?

 

[deer_hunter132]

Hey formidi what do you think of the 75 berger vld or the 80.5 fullbore I know guys who have great success in the 22 creedmore but what do you think of their use in a 223 ai with 22"-24" barrel?

Impact velocity...
Im going to say those cartridges arent that different in speed.
All it changes is max distance due to velocity.