.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[sierracharlie338]

Add one to the list.

.223 62 grain federal fusion MSR

95 yards. Neck shot (not on purpose but not by accident - long story).

DRT

Just turned 10 and her first deer / first buck. Happy kido. Proud papa.

That’s awesome congrats to you both!!

 

[Drenalin]

Saw 4 more shot with the 73 ELD-M today. Two of them ran a little less than a hundred yards, the others dropped. Internal damage was in line with what I’ve seen consistently this year. Got one exit, which was extremely dramatic. Shots were at 30 yards, 196 yards, 212 yards, and 294 yards. No pics this time.

Edit to add: these were all whitetails.

 

[Pharmseller]

@Pharmseller - If you mentioned it before I missed it; but would you mind telling us how much TAC and what temps caused that? I’m currently using TAC behind a 77SMK at 2720. Haven’t seen any issues on hot days yet, but definitely not looking to find out.

Well, let’s just say it was a lot, like more than Ramshot’s max for 5.56, and it was over 80 F.

Edit to add, it’s the only only only time I’ve exceeded book max.



P

 

[Anschutz]

Well, let’s just say it was a lot, like more than Ramshot’s max for 5.56, and it was over 80 F.




P

That doesn't sound like a TAC, Tikka, or temp problem.

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[Pharmseller]

That doesn't sound like a TAC, Tikka, or temp problem.

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It worked at 55 F.

But yeah, bonehead move on my part.




P

 

[z987k]

No, I wouldn’t use those unless forced. DRT Technology makes a powdered tungsten cored bullet that behaves more like a Berger. The 79gr .224 and 135gr 6.5mm seem to do well.

The 62gr works pretty well for the guys that don't have the twist for the 79. The BC to speed tradeoff actually works in the 62gr's favor past where anyone's shooting an animal with a 223.

 

[ORJoe]

It sucks they don’t, it’s one to many rounds for hunting in Oregon.

Oregon's 5 round limit is for semi-auto only. No limit on bolt or lever gun capacities.

 

[Nomosendero]

Starline does make a note of the difference in pressures between their .223 rem brass and 5.56 brass. https://www.starlinebrass.com/556x45mm-brass

Likely a loss of case capacity will result, does anyone know?

 

[clperry]

Data point. Wife’s deer.
223 yards
77 TMK
Impact velocity 2185 fps
Pass through
40 yard run
Right side is entry

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[Chris_in_Idaho]

Very nice!

 

[SNelson]

Data point. Wife’s deer.
223 yards
77 TMK
Impact velocity 2185 fps
Pass through
40 yard run
Right side is entry

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you make her wait until it was exactly 223 yards away?!?

 

[mtnwrunner]

Did you make her wait until it was exactly 223 yards away?!?

Not to mention today was 12/23/23.......

Randy

 

[wirehead]

I’ve read a fair amount of this thread… has anyone posted an example where the 77 TMK resulted in a less-than-ideal kill with clean shot or failure to locate? I’ve not seen one but thinking it has to exist…

 

[clperry]

Did you make her wait until it was exactly 223 yards away?!?

I haven’t even thought about it… but no I didn’t. Just coincidence.


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[clperry]

Not to mention today was 12/23/23.......

Randy

I should’ve bought a lottery ticket….


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[10E]

Just spent a week reading through this thread in my spare time. What an education!

It occurs to me that this is like the scientific method. You have a question, you research existing data, you form a hypothesis, you design an experiment to test your hypothesis, the experimental results prove or disprove your hypothesis, you continue on your way better at life because of what you learned.

Now let's go through this as the typical Magnum-Fudd:

Question: What cartridge will allow me to recover the highest percentage of game animals?

Research:
*Bullets kill animals with magic energy. *The more magic energy, the quicker the kill.
*Bigger & faster bullets contain more magic energy than smaller or slower bullets, +20% bonus for "Mag" "RM" "WM" or "Wby" on the head stamp.
*If you make a poor shot, extra magic energy from a magnum will spill out from the bullet and flow toward the vitals.
*Shoulders can stop bullets, consuming at least half of the magic energy of any bullet that makes it through, so you need to choose a round with double the energy and use a controlled expansion bullet if there's any possibility of hitting a shoulder.

Experiment: (note, the Magnum-Fudd has no reason actually to test his hypothesis, because everyone in the cabelas ammo aisle already confirmed.)
*Read hundreds of first hand accounts and necropsy photos from the lowly 223.
*Learn that it is the disruption of heart & lung tissue within the wound channel that kills the animal by depriving the brain of oxygen.
*Learn that a heavy match style bullet in a baby cartridge like 223 creates as large or larger wound channel than a tough controlled expansion bullet from a big magnum.
*Learn that you can likely make more accurate hits with a 223 than a 338 and you can absolutely afford to practice more with 223 than 338.
*Observe that 223 TMK death runs are equal or shorter than magnum death runs.

Conclusion:
*223 allows you to place shots more accurately both because it is easier to shoot and it is cheaper and funner to practice with.
*With bullets such as the 77 TMK, 223 actually gives a GREATER margin of error because the wound channel is larger than a controlled expansion bullet from a magnum.
*Conclude that a small round like 223 may actually result in more animals successfully recovered than a more powerfull cartridge.
*Reject all of the irrefutable photographic evidence and instead continue to cling to your original fuddlore hypothesis.
*Tell stories about how the Viet Cong could use 556 ammo in their AKs because their bore size was larger than ours and 50bmg can kill without contact because of its shockwave instead of practicing shooting from field positions with your $4/round 338wm.
*Continue hunting with big guns you have not practiced with, topped with a scope that doesn't hold zero, wounding and losing more animals than the 223 guys.


I like big cartridges as much as the next guy. Of the last three deer I shot, two were with 375h&h and the other was 300wsm. I'm all for people using whatever cartridge makes them happy.

BUT what people seem to be doing is rejecting actual evidence that's clearly laid out in front of them and continuing to say a big cartridge gives them more "margin for error" or "shorter tracking job" or is "more ethical." These things are demonstrably false.

Back to the scientific method, it's like the experimental results have disproven the hypothesis, but the fudds decide to reject the results and cling to the hypothesis instead.

Hey guys new to the forum! I just want to make sure I’m on the same page here. The only way to increase energy is by increasing mass, velocity, or both. The bigger cartridge with a higher muzzle velocity and more mass (with a bullet that is appropriately matched to use that extra energy by fragmenting rapidly ) WILL ALWAYS create a larger wound Channel , and have more material to fragment/ cause wounding, trauma and blood loss. There is no way around this fact and I hope we are not trying to claim that a 223 rem with any projectile will match a bigger magnum with a soft rapidly fragmenting bullet on wound channel. The bigger magnum will absolutely create a larger wound channel. Higher energy means a higher potential for wounding. I do not disagree that most mono or bonded bullets do not take advantage of the extra energy of a magnum cartridge, or that a 223 with a soft rapidly expanding bullet can match them in an apples to oranges comparison.

I do not disagree that for most hunting situations a magnum with a soft rapidly expanding bullet is entirely too much gun and meat damage can be seriously excessive.

That said the bigger magnum (with more magical energy) has the potential to kill faster through greater trauma and faster blood loss, however with great shot placement the difference in the speed of killing between the two may only be measured in seconds.

A bigger cartridge with an appropriately matched bullet will cause greater damage, wound channel, faster blood loss etc so it WILL BE more forgiving to an edge of vitals hits than a smaller cartridge in terms of killing speed.

Just trying to bridge the gap between old school and these newer ideas. I will say that some light for caliber soft pointed cup and core bullets from years past when pushed at magnum velocities were pretty potent killers and may have contributed to your modern day “average magnum fudd” thinker of today.

 

[Silent_Matt]

See post #1...

 

[fwafwow]

See post #1...

Yeah. Lots of this has been covered in this thread.

Welcome to Rokslide!

 

[10E]

See post #1...

See post I responded to.

See post #1...

see post I responded to on page 278.


I’ve read through this entire thread. This has been brought up more than once. It should be corrected in my opinion.

“Terminal ballistics is a sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target”

Energy absolutely has the potential to affect terminal performance greatly.

while perfect in the vital hits require very little energy to achieve the end result (death). Energy can have a great affect on the speed of death.

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[Formidilosus]

See post I responded to.

see post I responded to on page 278.


I’ve read through this entire thread. This has been brought up more than once. It should be corrected in my opinion.

“Terminal ballistics is a sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target”

Energy absolutely has the potential to affect terminal performance greatly.

while perfect in the vital hits require very little energy to achieve the end result (death). Energy can have a great affect on the speed of death.

While “energy” figure determined from velocity and weight, it is a useless metric for terminal ballistics. It tells you absolutely nothing about what size or shape a wound will be.

The only way to know what wound will be created is to shoot “x” bullet at “x” speed and measure the wound. That is why you are reading “ft-lbs of angry is useless”.