.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[mtnwrunner]

Did you make her wait until it was exactly 223 yards away?!?

Not to mention today was 12/23/23.......

Randy

 

[wirehead]

I’ve read a fair amount of this thread… has anyone posted an example where the 77 TMK resulted in a less-than-ideal kill with clean shot or failure to locate? I’ve not seen one but thinking it has to exist…

 

[clperry]

Did you make her wait until it was exactly 223 yards away?!?

I haven’t even thought about it… but no I didn’t. Just coincidence.


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[clperry]

Not to mention today was 12/23/23.......

Randy

I should’ve bought a lottery ticket….


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[10E]

Just spent a week reading through this thread in my spare time. What an education!

It occurs to me that this is like the scientific method. You have a question, you research existing data, you form a hypothesis, you design an experiment to test your hypothesis, the experimental results prove or disprove your hypothesis, you continue on your way better at life because of what you learned.

Now let's go through this as the typical Magnum-Fudd:

Question: What cartridge will allow me to recover the highest percentage of game animals?

Research:
*Bullets kill animals with magic energy. *The more magic energy, the quicker the kill.
*Bigger & faster bullets contain more magic energy than smaller or slower bullets, +20% bonus for "Mag" "RM" "WM" or "Wby" on the head stamp.
*If you make a poor shot, extra magic energy from a magnum will spill out from the bullet and flow toward the vitals.
*Shoulders can stop bullets, consuming at least half of the magic energy of any bullet that makes it through, so you need to choose a round with double the energy and use a controlled expansion bullet if there's any possibility of hitting a shoulder.

Experiment: (note, the Magnum-Fudd has no reason actually to test his hypothesis, because everyone in the cabelas ammo aisle already confirmed.)
*Read hundreds of first hand accounts and necropsy photos from the lowly 223.
*Learn that it is the disruption of heart & lung tissue within the wound channel that kills the animal by depriving the brain of oxygen.
*Learn that a heavy match style bullet in a baby cartridge like 223 creates as large or larger wound channel than a tough controlled expansion bullet from a big magnum.
*Learn that you can likely make more accurate hits with a 223 than a 338 and you can absolutely afford to practice more with 223 than 338.
*Observe that 223 TMK death runs are equal or shorter than magnum death runs.

Conclusion:
*223 allows you to place shots more accurately both because it is easier to shoot and it is cheaper and funner to practice with.
*With bullets such as the 77 TMK, 223 actually gives a GREATER margin of error because the wound channel is larger than a controlled expansion bullet from a magnum.
*Conclude that a small round like 223 may actually result in more animals successfully recovered than a more powerfull cartridge.
*Reject all of the irrefutable photographic evidence and instead continue to cling to your original fuddlore hypothesis.
*Tell stories about how the Viet Cong could use 556 ammo in their AKs because their bore size was larger than ours and 50bmg can kill without contact because of its shockwave instead of practicing shooting from field positions with your $4/round 338wm.
*Continue hunting with big guns you have not practiced with, topped with a scope that doesn't hold zero, wounding and losing more animals than the 223 guys.


I like big cartridges as much as the next guy. Of the last three deer I shot, two were with 375h&h and the other was 300wsm. I'm all for people using whatever cartridge makes them happy.

BUT what people seem to be doing is rejecting actual evidence that's clearly laid out in front of them and continuing to say a big cartridge gives them more "margin for error" or "shorter tracking job" or is "more ethical." These things are demonstrably false.

Back to the scientific method, it's like the experimental results have disproven the hypothesis, but the fudds decide to reject the results and cling to the hypothesis instead.

Hey guys new to the forum! I just want to make sure I’m on the same page here. The only way to increase energy is by increasing mass, velocity, or both. The bigger cartridge with a higher muzzle velocity and more mass (with a bullet that is appropriately matched to use that extra energy by fragmenting rapidly ) WILL ALWAYS create a larger wound Channel , and have more material to fragment/ cause wounding, trauma and blood loss. There is no way around this fact and I hope we are not trying to claim that a 223 rem with any projectile will match a bigger magnum with a soft rapidly fragmenting bullet on wound channel. The bigger magnum will absolutely create a larger wound channel. Higher energy means a higher potential for wounding. I do not disagree that most mono or bonded bullets do not take advantage of the extra energy of a magnum cartridge, or that a 223 with a soft rapidly expanding bullet can match them in an apples to oranges comparison.

I do not disagree that for most hunting situations a magnum with a soft rapidly expanding bullet is entirely too much gun and meat damage can be seriously excessive.

That said the bigger magnum (with more magical energy) has the potential to kill faster through greater trauma and faster blood loss, however with great shot placement the difference in the speed of killing between the two may only be measured in seconds.

A bigger cartridge with an appropriately matched bullet will cause greater damage, wound channel, faster blood loss etc so it WILL BE more forgiving to an edge of vitals hits than a smaller cartridge in terms of killing speed.

Just trying to bridge the gap between old school and these newer ideas. I will say that some light for caliber soft pointed cup and core bullets from years past when pushed at magnum velocities were pretty potent killers and may have contributed to your modern day “average magnum fudd” thinker of today.

 

[Silent_Matt]

See post #1...

 

[fwafwow]

See post #1...

Yeah. Lots of this has been covered in this thread.

Welcome to Rokslide!

 

[10E]

See post #1...

See post I responded to.

See post #1...

see post I responded to on page 278.


I’ve read through this entire thread. This has been brought up more than once. It should be corrected in my opinion.

“Terminal ballistics is a sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target”

Energy absolutely has the potential to affect terminal performance greatly.

while perfect in the vital hits require very little energy to achieve the end result (death). Energy can have a great affect on the speed of death.

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[Formidilosus]

See post I responded to.

see post I responded to on page 278.


I’ve read through this entire thread. This has been brought up more than once. It should be corrected in my opinion.

“Terminal ballistics is a sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target”

Energy absolutely has the potential to affect terminal performance greatly.

while perfect in the vital hits require very little energy to achieve the end result (death). Energy can have a great affect on the speed of death.

While “energy” figure determined from velocity and weight, it is a useless metric for terminal ballistics. It tells you absolutely nothing about what size or shape a wound will be.

The only way to know what wound will be created is to shoot “x” bullet at “x” speed and measure the wound. That is why you are reading “ft-lbs of angry is useless”.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I hope we are not trying to claim that a 223 rem with any projectile will match a bigger magnum with a soft rapidly fragmenting bullet on wound channel. The bigger magnum will absolutely create a larger wound channel.



A bigger cartridge with an appropriately matched bullet will cause greater damage, wound channel, faster blood loss etc so it WILL BE more forgiving to an edge of vitals hits than a smaller cartridge in terms of killing speed.

Right. But what's being compared is not the same style bullet. It's a heavy for caliber match bullet in 223, specifically the 77tmk, vs a controlled expansion bullet in a bigger caliber.

Given equally constructed bullets, the bigger round makes the bigger wound, and bigger wound equals more margin for error. All true.

The direct comparison for this thread would be something like a 195TMK in 30 cal.

But, that creates such a huge meat wasting wound (as form has posted pictures of a couple times where the whole ham is blown out) that it's too much. And, most of the older thinking wants a big magnum also weight retaining bullet that penetrates above all else.

So the actual comparison that gets made is an optimum bullet in 223 vs a "tough" bullet in the bigger caliber.

With something like a 300 Win Mag loaded with 180gr TTSX or Accubonds, most guys would think they have bigger margin for error because of all the extra energy and "knock down power". But these combinations will actually produce a smaller diameter wound channel than the 223 77tmk.

So the 300wm guy actually needs to place his bullet much closer to a vital organ to damage it than the 223 guy does. That is in essence less margin for error.

Back to your point though, comparing the same heavy soft match bullets in big vs small, there's an optimum point. Too small of a wound channel and you miss the vitals or just don't let blood out quick enough and get a long tracking job. Too big a wound channel and you waste meat. There's a point where you're doing plenty of destruction to the vitals so the animal won't outrun whatever oxygen is already in its brain, but you still have meat to recover. It seems the 223 77tmk sits right in this optimum spot.

 

[Shraggs]

See post I responded to.

see post I responded to on page 278.


I’ve read through this entire thread. This has been brought up more than once. It should be corrected in my opinion.

“Terminal ballistics is a sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target”

Energy absolutely has the potential to affect terminal performance greatly.

while perfect in the vital hits require very little energy to achieve the end result (death). Energy can have a great affect on the speed of death.

Thanks for the welcome!

If you feel the need based on your superior knowledge to correct documented evidence in this thread you claim have read then start a new thread and enlighten everyone for the record.

 

[swavescatter]

Energy isn't irrelevant, it's just that kinetic energy alone is meaningless. What is actually important is dE/dX, or linear energy TRANSFER.

It's not how much energy a bullet has going IN, rather how much energy that bullet LOSES inside the vitals.

1 billion ft-lbs means nothing if it zips through without disrupting a single cell.

 

[10E]

While “energy” figure determined from velocity and weight, it is a useless metric for terminal ballistics. It tells you absolutely nothing about what size or shape a wound will be.

The only way to know what wound will be created is to shoot “x” bullet at “x” speed and measure the wound. That is why you are reading “ft-lbs of angry is useless”.

“Energy is useless as a metric for terminal ballistics” is too generic a statement. That is a surefire “fudd trap” and a way to get some of the older guys fired up It is not useless. I would argue that The cartridge with more energy will have a wider desired terminal performance range across the spectrum of bullets available for a given caliber.

This is especially important when you begin to reduce velocity and bullet mass (energy). The spectrum of bullets suitable begins to shrink with the reduction in energy. For example thinking of your 223 rem as a 300 win mag can get you into trouble when selecting a bullet. The bullet has to be optimized to use every bit of the reduced energy (velocity/mass) to produce the quick clean death we are wanting . Venturing out away from the somewhat narrow bullet selection can lead to less than stellar terminal performance on game (ie smaller wound channels, slow death, slow bleeding, long runs, unrecovered game in the cases of poor shot placement etc.)

For example In the 300 win mag you could honestly use just about any factory loaded hunting bullet out there inside of 400 yards and get the desired results . (Assuming similar shot placement) Very Broad wound channels with quick bleeding and fast death. With a 223 it’s a very specific few.

In an apples to apples comparison the higher energy cartridge with a bullet optimized for the increased impact energy WILL ALWAYS create more wounding/larger wound, trauma, bleeding ,and in other words greater terminal performance. They are too connected to totally exclude one from the other.

I think the more accurate statement is energy is nearly useless metric for killing a big game animal. Which this thread has clearly shown by a ton of dead critters shot with a 223 rem. Many of which died pretty darn quick.

Energy (bullet mass and velocity) can however have a significant effect on the speed at which an animal dies. That I think is the biggest fine print statement with using small cartridges. They are absolutely lethal but the speed at which they kill can vary greatly if the shot is not perfect or the bullet selection is not optimized.

 

[BjornF16]

“Energy is useless as a metric for terminal ballistics” is too generic a statement. That is a surefire “fudd trap” and a way to get some of the older guys fired up It is not useless. I would argue that The cartridge with more energy will have a wider desired terminal performance range across the spectrum of bullets available for a given caliber.

This is especially important when you begin to reduce velocity and bullet mass (energy). The spectrum of bullets suitable begins to shrink with the reduction in energy. For example thinking of your 223 rem as a 300 win mag can get you into trouble when selecting a bullet. The bullet has to be optimized to use every bit of the reduced energy (velocity/mass) to produce the quick clean death we are wanting . Venturing out away from the somewhat narrow bullet selection can lead to less than stellar terminal performance on game (ie smaller wound channels, slow death, slow bleeding, long runs, unrecovered game in the cases of poor shot placement etc.)

For example In the 300 win mag you could honestly use just about any factory loaded hunting bullet out there inside of 400 yards and get the desired results . (Assuming similar shot placement) Very Broad wound channels with quick bleeding and fast death. With a 223 it’s a very specific few.

In an apples to apples comparison the higher energy cartridge with a bullet optimized for the increased impact energy WILL ALWAYS create more wounding/larger wound, trauma, bleeding ,and in other words greater terminal performance. They are too connected to totally exclude one from the other.

I think the more accurate statement is energy is nearly useless metric for killing a big game animal. Which this thread has clearly shown by a ton of dead critters shot with a 223 rem. Many of which died pretty darn quick.

Energy (bullet mass and velocity) can however have a significant effect on the speed at which an animal dies. That I think is the biggest fine print statement with using small cartridges. They are absolutely lethal but the speed at which they kill can vary greatly if the shot is not perfect or the bullet selection is not optimized.

Go back and re-read this thread for comprehension…take your time.

Then start a new thread detailing precisely how energy kills.

 

[10E]

If you feel the need based on your superior knowledge to correct documented evidence in this thread you claim have read then start a new thread and enlighten everyone for the record.

I do not refute any of the evidence (who could?) nor have I ever claimed to have superior knowledge. I honestly would like to learn something if I am wrong.

 

[clperry]

“Energy is useless as a metric for terminal ballistics” is too generic a statement. That is a surefire “fudd trap” and a way to get some of the older guys fired up It is not useless. I would argue that The cartridge with more energy will have a wider desired terminal performance range across the spectrum of bullets available for a given caliber.

This is especially important when you begin to reduce velocity and bullet mass (energy). The spectrum of bullets suitable begins to shrink with the reduction in energy. For example thinking of your 223 rem as a 300 win mag can get you into trouble when selecting a bullet. The bullet has to be optimized to use every bit of the reduced energy (velocity/mass) to produce the quick clean death we are wanting . Venturing out away from the somewhat narrow bullet selection can lead to less than stellar terminal performance on game (ie smaller wound channels, slow death, slow bleeding, long runs, unrecovered game in the cases of poor shot placement etc.)

For example In the 300 win mag you could honestly use just about any factory loaded hunting bullet out there inside of 400 yards and get the desired results . (Assuming similar shot placement) Very Broad wound channels with quick bleeding and fast death. With a 223 it’s a very specific few.

In an apples to apples comparison the higher energy cartridge with a bullet optimized for the increased impact energy WILL ALWAYS create more wounding/larger wound, trauma, bleeding ,and in other words greater terminal performance. They are too connected to totally exclude one from the other.

I think the more accurate statement is energy is nearly useless metric for killing a big game animal. Which this thread has clearly shown by a ton of dead critters shot with a 223 rem. Many of which died pretty darn quick.

Energy (bullet mass and velocity) can however have a significant effect on the speed at which an animal dies. That I think is the biggest fine print statement with using small cartridges. They are absolutely lethal but the speed at which they kill can vary greatly if the shot is not perfect or the bullet selection is not optimized.

We’ve covered this. You’re speaking basic physics of which most are privy too. You may have read the entire thread, but you’ve missed the point. The goal is to maximize hit rates. That entails several things, of which more recoil is never conducive. Go back and re read. Some of what you’re preaching isn’t entirely false, but it’s also just not the point.

 

[Formidilosus]

I do not refute any of the evidence (who could?) nor have I ever claimed to have superior knowledge. I honestly would like to learn something if I am wrong.

You are wrong. It is discussed at length in this thread. If you have read every post you would know why the below is factually incorrect.

Energy (bullet mass and velocity) can however have a significant effect on the speed at which an animal dies. That I think is the biggest fine print statement with using small cartridges. They are absolutely lethal but the speed at which they kill can vary greatly if the shot is not perfect or the bullet selection is not optimized.

 

[Shraggs]

I do not refute any of the evidence (who could?) nor have I ever claimed to have superior knowledge. I honestly would like to learn something if I am wrong.

If you don’t refute it yet insist on correcting the record do it on your own thread.

Seems like you joined just to come pontificate or you’ve had enough of this thread opening people minds.

I’ll challenge you based on your start date that you couldn’t have read this entire thread…

 

[Shortschaf]

I’ve read a fair amount of this thread… has anyone posted an example where the 77 TMK resulted in a less-than-ideal kill with clean shot or failure to locate? I’ve not seen one but thinking it has to exist…

+1
Also curious about any drawbacks people may have noticed when using this bullet

 

[ARK_Ginger]

+1
Also curious about any drawbacks people may have noticed when using this bullet

Drawbacks?

Sierra doesn’t make enough of them and not enough ammo companies make a load with it.

If you’re a shoulder shooter you’re going to loose more meat than a tough bullet, but it kills.