.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

The Guide

WKR
Joined
Aug 20, 2023
Messages
1,176
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Montana
You have to admit that a 270 or a 30-06 are good recommendations. And with some practice and good form they are not at all hard to shoot.
They are good suggestions for someone who has gained basic firearms proficiency but will lead to poor habits in those who are untrained. You don't take a guy off the streets with no training and put him in the boxing ring with a semi pro boxer for a sparing match on the first day. A few people might do ok but for the most part people need to work up to it.

Jay
 

FredH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Dec 2, 2021
Messages
187
They are good suggestions for someone who has gained basic firearms proficiency but will lead to poor habits in those who are untrained. You don't take a guy off the streets with no training and put him in the boxing ring with a semi pro boxer for a sparing match on the first day. A few people might do ok but for the most part people need to work up to it.

Jay
I'm still not seeing either the 30-06 or 270 as hard kickers, I take a guy off the street, teach him the fundementals with a 22 rimfire and then teach him how to shoot the bigger rifles. Very few people have never fired any sort of gun before they try bigger rounds. The Army is a different story. But they still teach fundamentals first. Yes certain people have a tough time with bigger guns. If they are not mentally equipped to handle a 270 with 130 grain loads are they really mentally equipped with the fortitude to kill deer? I used to qualify people for a security firm I worked for. Those that flinched and closed their eyes were shown the door.
 

TaperPin

WKR
Joined
Jul 12, 2023
Messages
3,752
Good lord... Aren't you the guy who was arguing that the 243 is what your kids start on but only until they can handle a 270 or 30/06?

My apologies, maybe "started out with" weren't the 3 correct words to convey the sentiment of guys who start out, move up, and then move back down in cartridge capacity after analyzing results.
I’ll admit when I’m wrong - it’s easy to assume other hunting nuts are also gun nuts when all I’ve surrounded myself with are others just like me. I had to ask a friend if we are so unusual, and he assured me we are. What an epiphany - makes me more worried more than ever about the future of shooting, but it is what it is.

I’ll agree with you, adults going to a gun store cold with no shooting history or other big game rifles, shouldn’t buy more gun than a 6mm/243. They also shouldn’t think it’s a lightning bolt, or elk slayer, but that’s a different issue.
 

The Guide

WKR
Joined
Aug 20, 2023
Messages
1,176
Location
Montana
I'm still not seeing either the 30-06 or 270 as hard kickers, I take a guy off the street, teach him the fundementals with a 22 rimfire and then teach him how to shoot the bigger rifles. Very few people have never fired any sort of gun before they try bigger rounds. The Army is a different story. But they still teach fundamentals first. Yes certain people have a tough time with bigger guns. If they are not mentally equipped to handle a 270 with 130 grain loads are they really mentally equipped with the fortitude to kill deer? I used to qualify people for a security firm I worked for. Those that flinched and closed their eyes were shown the door.
That's the key, someone teaches and they use a lower recoil system to get the fundamental knowledge. Not everyone gets that opportunity.

Jay
 

nagibson1

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
105
Location
Madison, WI
That's the key, someone teaches and they use a lower recoil system to get the fundamental knowledge. Not everyone gets that opportunity.

Jay
My experience was without working up with training fundamentals. I still really struggle not to flinch at all with 270+. My elk gun is a 30-06. After a couple rounds at the range I can group at 400, but fresh first shot and the flinch instinct is pretty strong. Missed a whitetail at only 120yds this fall off a tripod. Closed my eyes all the way. So frustrating.
 

FredH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Dec 2, 2021
Messages
187
My experience was without working up with training fundamentals. I still really struggle not to flinch at all with 270+. My elk gun is a 30-06. After a couple rounds at the range I can group at 400, but fresh first shot and the flinch instinct is pretty strong. Missed a whitetail at only 120yds this fall off a tripod. Closed my eyes all the way. So frustrating.
You need to practice. Get used to it. Which bothers you the most? The muzzle blast or the kick? Get a firm grip on the forearm and sort of stretch the gun between the hands. This helps greatly with control. Also does the stock fit you? Is the scope far enough forward it won't hit you in the face? You can get reduced recoil loads that make a big difference to practice with or even get a 223 to practice with. The more you shoot the less a flinch will bother you.
 

nagibson1

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
105
Location
Madison, WI
You need to practice. Get used to it. Which bothers you the most? The muzzle blast or the kick? Get a firm grip on the forearm and sort of stretch the gun between the hands. This helps greatly with control. Also does the stock fit you? Is the scope far enough forward it won't hit you in the face? You can get reduced recoil loads that make a big difference to practice with or even get a 223 to practice with. The more you shoot the less a flinch will bother you.
Muzzle blast I think. I load recoil reduced loads. And I have a .243. But I practice about three or four times a year. I can shoot under moa, but my first about two shots after a break aren't good.
 

The Guide

WKR
Joined
Aug 20, 2023
Messages
1,176
Location
Montana
Muzzle blast I think. I load recoil reduced loads. And I have a .243. But I practice about three or four times a year. I can shoot under moa, but my first about two shots after a break aren't good.
I would recommend you get something you can shoot more frequently. When I work with somebody with a noticeable flinch, we start them with a nitro piston or springer break action air rifle. This can be shot at 7 to 10 yards in the home (basement or garage) or in the yard into a pellet trap without bothering people. The practice starts with learning how to break the trigger with out flinching. We then move to breaking the trigger without flinching and keeping your eyes open and on the target. Then move to keeping the above plus maintain the crosshairs on the aim point through the whole process. And finally the above plus watching the pellet make a hole in the target. Springers and nitro piston air rifles make enough noise and have enough movement upon firing that they can used to work through a flinching.

Next we would work with a rimfire doing the same process at a range using hearing protection at 25 and again at 50 yards. Once your not flinching and maintaining sight picture with the rimfire, we move on to a light recoiling centerfire rifle like a 223, 22 Hornet, 6.5 Grendel or the like.

This process could take a few days or a few months depending upon your time commitment and severity of your flinch. I've used this process with kids through adults. Your needs may vary. Shooting a pellet gun might not makeup for practice with your hunting rifle but it damn sure is better than no practice at all.

Jay
 

sneaky

"DADDY"
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no blood. Killed it with norma after it started walking uphill. Bullets operated in there parameter in my opinion. Found shrapnel of them. But i boned that bull out in field. I saw enough ill never use it no matter the bullet.
Seems like a bold claim to make after a sample size of one. Not many cartridges too choose from if the criteria is they didn't work on one animal

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