.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[mxgsfmdpx]

"These mouse guns will never have the required pound feet of energy, margin for error, and KNOCKDOWN POWER!" - some fudd somewhere


It's pointless to argue with people, just lean into the fuddism and own it.

I think the open discussion is helpful. Love the video evidence as that doesn’t usually lie.

Once the name calling comments come out or calling people “stupid” based on a bullet being a little bit smaller or bigger around is when shit gets locked.

 

[Dave0317]

This thread has still not defined a bullet failure. How do you define a bullet failure?

The OP has defined his intended definition more than once in the first few pages; in the context of this thread, and in the context of the overall theme of comparing effectiveness of smaller Vs larger calibers.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

It really boils down to, go do it. I know a 6 creed and a 6.5 creed will kill elk. If someone wants to shoot a mega magnum, cool. Go for it.

 

[Dave0317]

So like somebody posted earlier most of the bullets that are being discussed can not fail? Most of the bullets being discussed are match bullets which the manufacturers say are not designed to be hunted with.

No,
Let’s say for the sake of discussion:
“Failure=failure to kill when the bullet is put in a place that a larger more “traditionally appropriate” caliber for a given game animal would be likely to cleanly kill.”

This discussion was originally aimed at small vs large calibers, not bullet construction or labeling.

What the thread seems to find so far is that there is little to no discernible difference in lethality. Most of the “failures” involve intermediate obstacles, poor shot placement, and other anomalies that seem to affect larger bullets just as much.

 

[huntnful]

The one placed into the nervous system.
Save that, the one moving the fastest upon impact.

That’s not true. The one with the widest deepest wound channel on impact is likely to affect the nervous system most.

That 22 creed definitely hit a much high higher impact velocity in those videos.

You could not have placed that 300 NMI bullet any better. Literally a perfect shot. The trauma just is what it is. And that 22 creed bullet placed in that same exact spot at that same distance likely would not have elicited the same reaction. But would have ended with the same result I’m sure. A dead deer.

But there’s no reason to act like there is ZERO difference upon impact and wound channels between these cartridges. Come on.

 

[huntnful]

I think the open discussion is helpful. Love the video evidence as that doesn’t usually lie.

Once the name calling comments come out or calling people “stupid” based on a bullet being a little bit smaller or bigger around is when shit gets locked.

I definitely agree man. There’s nothing wrong with sharing actual data.

I shared the lungs of the giant pig I shot with a 22 creed also. Excellent damage internally. I was highly impressed.

I’m just saying it doesn’t mean there isn’t a difference like it is sometimes portrayed on here.

Definitely not directing that at you. I very much appreciate the open dialogue about these things

 

[huntnful]

Do you have the rest of the video from the buck shot with the 300 Norma?

Yes I do. It’s 20 seconds longer. He slide into that tree where the original video end, and then you see his horns bob up one more time.

Shoot me a PM with your cell number and I’ll send it to you if you have an I phone.

I just trimmed it down for YouTube because there was basically nothing that happened after that buck slid into the tree.

 

[barehandlineman]

If you have hunted enough and KILLED enough you will learn bigger guns do it better. If you shoot a smaller gun better two things should happen either practice more or shorten your distance. As a custom rifle builder and a guy thats been on hundreds of elk kills let alone other animals. Practice on the tool you intend to use is best and build that tool to work best. I dislike short barrels and suppressors. You are giving up to much in performance. I personally witnessed a Rosevelt get killed this weekend. 480 yards 22 creedmoor 20” barrel suppressed that bull took 2 rounds 88eldm one high shoulder one in lung. Ive seen many elk hit this bull reacted as he was untouched. This was actually a test for me personally with all this talk on small calibers being elk guns. Anyway we let the 30 cal finish the job. I wish it wasn't a torrential downpour or it would of been on video. Practice with the correct tool. Yes bullet selection is important. But there is difference in energy and what it does to animals. People say it doesn’t matter thats just bs. Doing trauma to animals vitals and taking the wind out of its sail at same time stones them. If the argument is simple take away shooter’s ability bigger guns kill more ethically.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I definitely agree man. There’s nothing wrong with sharing actual data.

I shared the lungs of the giant pig I shot with a 22 creed also. Excellent damage internally. I was highly impressed.

I’m just saying it doesn’t mean there isn’t a difference like it is sometimes portrayed on here.

Definitely not directing that at you. I very much appreciate the open dialogue about these things

It’s all good if it’s directed towards me. I just do my best to try and help folks be more efficient killers.

So far I’m finding, like when I went down from 30 and 7mm to 6.5 and 6mm, that going down to .224 hasn’t “lost me” any animals yet like I was warned.

If you hit the same animal in the same spot with the same velocity and the same bullet construction, but one is larger than the other, you will generally see a larger wound channel; which can lead to a quicker time to death.

But again, when put into practice with first round hit ability for average shooters, hitting that “same spot” with a 7mm Mag versus a .243 has been proven over and over to favor the 6mm.

Are there guys like you who can shoot WELL above average no matter the chambering? Yes. Are you the normal representation of guys who go out every year to try and kill deer and elk? No.

 

[z987k]

That’s not true. The one with the widest deepest wound channel on impact is likely to affect the nervous system most.

That 22 creed definitely hit a much high higher impact velocity in those videos.

You could not have placed that 300 NMI bullet any better. Literally a perfect shot. The trauma just is what it is. And that 22 creed bullet placed in that same exact spot at that same distance likely would not have elicited the same reaction. But would have ended with the same result I’m sure. A dead deer.

But there’s no reason to act like there is ZERO difference upon impact and wound channels between these cartridges. Come on.

Nathan Foster has written quite a bit on this, and save for an actual direct hit to the CNS, velocity is the only factor that is common to the majority of his kills where the animal drops on the spot. And it's rather fast. Off the top of my head I think he says 2600fps+.

I wish both of those videos had a necropsy because, at least with the other thread on this topic, when wound channels are presented - multiple kills with multiple diameter bullets and multiple cartridges, no one can figure out which is which.

If a 250gr 30 cal creates .5in more wound cavity diameter, if even temporary, then a 22, and both impact at say 2700fps, and they both are hitting the same spot near but not into the CNS, I would expect the 30 cal to produce more DRT results simply because it'll be more likely that it does in fact disrupt the CNS because of that extra .5in.

 

[z987k]

Are there guys like you who can shoot WELL above average no matter the chambering? Yes. Are you the normal representation of guys who go out every year to try and kill deer and elk? No.

Even so, data shows that even above average shooters shoot a LOT better with less recoil.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Energy, wind in sails, knockdown power.

I'm a gun assembler, trust me.

 

[huntnful]

Energy, wind in sails, knockdown power.

I'm a gun assembler, trust me.

66 five point or bigger Roosevelt bulls hanging in his rafters…. Yeah. Not enough to have an opinion. You’re right.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

66 five point or bigger Roosevelt bulls hanging in his rafters…. Yeah. Not enough to have an opinion. You’re right.

I'm agreeing! Bigger is always better. I think anything under 33 cal should be illegal....for the elk's sake.

No place for a mouse gun in the elk woods.

 

[Ucsdryder]

66 five point or bigger Roosevelt bulls hanging in his rafters…. Yeah. Not enough to have an opinion. You’re right.

There’s nothing you can say. When guys are saying a 22cm kills as well as 338 Lapua then it’s just an exercise in brain damage.

 

[Ucsdryder]

 

[Wyo_hntr]

There’s nothing you can say. When guys are saying a 22cm kills as well as 338 Lapua then it’s just an exercise in brain damage.

Sir, do you not hunt with a tiny 7mm? Please, for the elk, leave the woman gun at home. Be a man, hunt with a real elk cartridge #338

 

[huntnful]

It’s all good if it’s directed towards me. I just do my best to try and help folks be more efficient killers.

So far I’m finding, like when I went down from 30 and 7mm to 6.5 and 6mm, that going down to .224 hasn’t “lost me” any animals yet like I was warned.

If you hit the same animal in the same spot with the same velocity and the same bullet construction, but one is larger than the other, you will generally see a larger wound channel; which can lead to a quicker time to death.

But again, when put into practice with first round hit ability for average shooters, hitting that “same spot” with a 7mm Mag versus a .243 has been proven over and over to favor the 6mm.

Are there guys like you who can shoot WELL above average no matter the chambering? Yes. Are you the normal representation of guys who go out every year to try and kill deer and elk? No.

Very true and well said .

I’m not arguing, and will never argue that smaller guns are easier to shoot. They are for sure.

I don’t think the difference is as extreme as it is sometimes portrayed for anyone that spends a decent amount of time behind their rifles.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

There’s nothing you can say. When guys are saying a 22cm kills as well as 338 Lapua then it’s just an exercise in brain damage.

Can you quote where this was stated? It seems that honestly, you’re so obsessed with hating on something so much with which you have zero experience with, that it’s making you read things that haven’t even been typed.

 

[Taudisio]

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