.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[nagibson1]

Yes. I have shot hundreds of deer. All with larger cartridges and they all have left blood trails.

Yes. I shot Sierra hollow point game kings in 2005ish. 30cal in 30_06. No exit wounds. Killed a few deer, but found them eventually. Then I lost a doe after a perfect heart shot in Alabama. Saw the death kick and not a speck of blood. I switched bullets after that.

However, my 06 always seems to leave a blood trail and my. 243 doesn't. I like blood trails, esp in eastern hunting in thick stuff or evening hunts. I'm neither elf nor Indian. I like easy tracking.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Yes. I shot Sierra hollow point game kings in 2005ish. 30cal in 30_06. No exit wounds. Killed a few deer, but found them eventually. Then I lost a doe after a perfect heart shot in Alabama. Saw the death kick and not a speck of blood. I switched bullets after that.

However, my 06 always seems to leave a blood trail and my. 243 doesn't. I like blood trails, esp in eastern hunting in thick stuff or evening hunts. I'm neither elf nor Indian. I like easy tracking.

You don’t need to be an elf or an Indian to learn how to find dead whitetails on the east coast.

“I’m gonna use a bullet that takes longer to kill in most cases, but it MIGHT leave a blood trail.” Weird.

 

[wind gypsy]

Lots of guys run 6.5s in 7 twist barrels. I've seen a lot of 22 creeds twisted 1:7 running well over 3500 fps.

I largely think the issue is the paper-thin jacket on the ELD-M. Berger, Nosler, and Sierra bullets don't have the same track record of self destruction.

You’ll find plenty of tales of 147s going poof if you look around as well.

Berger’s target line exists because of jacket failures that were occurring in competition from rifles with hot bores, faster twist, and worn barrels. You’ll find plenty of stories of guys struggling to keep 90 gr 22 pills together too.

I don’t worry about elds, especially the x version, going poof before reaching the target in hunting scenarios.

 

[Tell]

Maybe elk can stop bullets?

30cal bonded. That is the entrance into the back-strap.

View attachment 794849

What’s the story on this?

 

[Formidilosus]

What’s the story on this?

What? You don’t believe a 30cal bonded bullet “blew up” and only penetrated an inch or two?

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Is that a Cooper rule #4 scenario?

 

[Tell]

What? You don’t believe a 30cal bonded bullet “blew up” and only penetrated an inch or two?

I just thought there might be more to the story than that since most of your bullet-/necropsy photos have a lot of details to go with them. Since the animal was recovered and that shot barely entered the back strap, we can assume that shot was a flyer, so we don’t have to count it.

 

[Harvey_NW]

What? You don’t believe a 30cal bonded bullet “blew up” and only penetrated an inch or two?

It doesn't happen.. Right?

 

[The Guide]

What? You don’t believe a 30cal bonded bullet “blew up” and only penetrated an inch or two?

Only happens with 223, 6mm, and 6.5mm bullets. Never happens with "adult" calibers only that kiddy stuff.

Jay

 

[Formidilosus]

Is that a Cooper rule #4 scenario?

Probably not if you ask the shooter.

Since the animal was recovered and that shot barely entered the back strap, we can assume that shot was a flyer, so we don’t have to count it.

That’s devious.

It doesn't happen.. Right?

It must- there’s picture proof of if it.

Only happens with 223, 6mm, and 6.5mm bullets. Never happens with "adult" calibers only that kiddy stuff.

Jay

That’s right.

 

[Formidilosus]

Fully expanded, less than 2 inches of penetration, little to no localized bruising or destroyed tissue…. Those elk are tough man.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Fully expanded, less than 2 inches of penetration, little to no localized bruising or destroyed tissue…. Those elk are tough man.


View attachment 794948

So what did it impact first before it hit the elk?

 

[svivian]

So what did it impact first before it hit the elk?

went through six elk.... too much energy

 

[Leaf Litter]

I love how sensitive the 223 guys are. Going wildly off-topic in posts to try and prove some false equivalency. Refusing to provide any useful information or details, despite demanding them form everybody else. Angrily dismissing anecdotal evidence that doesn't fit their narrative, yet lauding anecdotal evidence that does.

They're like vegans. You don't have to ask them what they shoot, they'll tell you in an unsolicited rant all about how their 77 TMK could kill a blue whale at 1100 yards and how stupid you are shooting anything else.

Nobody is saying a 223 won't kill an animal. The argument is that it's not always the best tool for the task at hand.

 

[Formidilosus]

I love how sensitive the 223 guys are. Going wildly off-topic in posts to try and prove some false equivalency.

Yeah no. That would almost universally be the “it’s too small” side.

Refusing to provide any useful information or details, despite demanding them form everybody else.

? There are multiple threads with hundreds- HUNDREDS of detailed pictures and information, and thousands of logical and detailed responses to the consistent “but what abouts”.

Angrily dismissing anecdotal evidence that doesn't fit their narrative, yet lauding anecdotal evidence that does.

No- they seek evidence. You know, like hundreds of pages full of detailed data.

Nobody is saying a 223 won't kill an animal. The argument is that it's not always the best tool for the task at hand.

Based on what evidence?

 

[Formidilosus]

So what did it impact first before it hit the elk?

Another elk.

But, if it was in the “shoulder” exactly as it is shown, it would be another “bullet failed to penetrate an elk shoulder” story.

 

[Thegman]

Bottom line, both big and small bullets can leave a lack of blood. That doesn’t really indicate anything for or against overall lethality. More blood is not bad, but a dead deer 20 yards away with a liquefied heart is not a bad thing either.

I think this about sums it up in a reasonable way. I've certainly seen no blood trails from 30 caliber bullets (still recovered the animals).

To me, the bottom line is probably that, yes, you're more likely to get a blood trail from a larger diameter, deeper penetrating bullet, but blood trail and killing are two different things.

So far, from my limited experience, if I'm shooting deer at 100 yards or so, a 300 Blackout with Barnes 110 Tac-X or 125 BT is more likely to provide a better blood trail than a 223 with say, a 77 TMK, but also from my limited experience, I doubt either "kills better" than the TMK.

If you're shooting through ribs/lungs and want a blood trail in as many cases as possible, there are probably better choices than a 223, even though those choices might not kill as quickly as the 223 and a heavy match bullet.

To add: In the spirt of this thread title, over the last year on 15 or so big game animals, from deer to moose and grizzly, I've not seen anything close to what would be called a "223, 6mm, 6.5mm failure on big game", in fact, if anything, it would be the polar opposite.

 

[Leaf Litter]

Another elk.

But, if it was in the “shoulder” exactly as it is shown, it would be another “bullet failed to penetrate an elk shoulder” story.

So you initially misrepresented the photo (lied) in an attempt to make a point. What a joke.

 

[svivian]

What a joke.

Correct... it was a joke

 

[Formidilosus]

So you initially misrepresented the photo (lied) in an attempt to make a point. What a joke.

I’m pretty sure people understood sarcasm well enough. I’m also sure that they understand it was an example of what happens when people claim “bullet blew up on the shoulder and failed to penetrate”.

The only “joke” is that people are so emotionally tied to gun writer myths and “daddy said” that they can’t use logic, reason, and base intelligence combined with critical thinking to understand that bullets don’t upset completely, yet only penetrate a couple inches, and lack all evidence for the mechanism that caused that bullet upset (massively destroyed tissue).

I’ve pulled quite a few fully expanded, encased in gristle bullets out of elk.
I/we watch shoot through with hunters almost every year- lots of years multiple times. As in this case, they’ll even have an elk drop then get back up and run off. Then the “hunter” claims the bullet must have “blew up” on the shoulder. Mean while it was a shoot through (or above the spine)- often wasn’t even the elk they were shooting at that fell (but of course they don’t know that because they lost sight of it during recoil) but for ever and ever that bullet “blew up on the bulls shoulder”. Then someone kills an elk and pulls a bullet out of it like my picture, and there you go. Never mind the mechanism that bullets require makes it impossible*.