22 Creedmoor for Scimitar Oryx?

[mxgsfmdpx]

I did a little bit of searching on this forum for fun, and the amount of parroting of Fuddlore easily and handily out numbers general posts stating that large for caliber, well constructed bullets kills animals very effectively.

The numbers are staggering, easily 500 posts to 1 on this forum searching for general “caliber” and “rifle” recommendation threads.

I appreciate a thread like this that shows real world results with good photos, rather than echoing tired and false narratives.

 

[atmat]

Send a series of emails to various veteran African operators and ask them. I'm sure they'd love to argue with a guy who has zero experience over there.

But I was asking you, since you spoke with authority.

I’m not arguing. I’ve never been to Africa. I honestly have no experience there.

That’s why I asked my question, which you don’t seem to want or have an answer for. And that’s okay to not know. But when you act like you know be prepared to be called out for it.

 

[Mojave]

I have hunted in Namibia and been on hunts for gemsbok oryx in New Mexico and Aoudad in New Mexico and Texas.

I have killed 14 African big game animals including a mix of kudu, zebra, oryx, springbok, hartebeest, blesbok, steinbok and baboon.

Zebras are probably tougher than any big game animal in America other than bears, they re probably tougher than anything in Africa other than the elephant, hippo, rhino and maybe buffalo.

 

[Formidilosus]

Zebras are probably tougher than any big game animal in America other than bears,

Bears are “tough”?

 

[atmat]

Bears are “tough”?

Yes, especially those super tough grizzlies getting killed by 223 FMJs

 

[Thegman]

Since PH's see several hundred animals killed every year, and literally a few thousand animals killed through the years, they've likely got a much better idea of which bullets work and which do not than any and everyone else.

That conjecture sure wasn't my (limited) experience. The PHs I was with had no idea about what I was using when I went to Africa (150 E-Tip in my 30-06). They commented that they preferred the 165s they use (cup-and-core) as they would penetrate better. Their 165s work just fine, but penetrate better, no.

True they kill at least hundreds of animals per year, but in my experience, didn't "experiment" much out of a fairly narrow band...so literally, didn't know -that much- about things out of that narrow band.

 

[Mojave]

Bears are “tough”?

Good question, that is what everyone says. Maybe, I have no experience.

An animal that I think is very tough is pronghorn antelope. Hit badly they go forever.

Actually hit well and they can run 100 yards. CNS hits don't count. We had a lung shot one run 150 years in 2022.

Never hit anything in the spine, neck or head that it didn't die. CNS kills very well. But it is easy to screw up.

 

[Formidilosus]

Good question, that is what everyone says. Maybe, I have no experience.

Yes, lots of people say it- generally the same people that think elk are “tough”, think African animals are “tough”. Maybe African animals are “tough”, or maybe the general type of person by and large that go to Africa the most really aren’t good.
To a man every person I know and hunt with that think any NA animal is “tough”, also think African animals are. Every person I know and hunt with that says animals are just tissue and they’re really isn’t anything special about killing any NA animal, have come back from Africa and stated with a shrugg- “the die the same, just shoot them a bit further forward”.

The correlation seems to be, the ones that think animals are “tough” tend to have limited killing experience, poorer shooting skills, and poor factual understanding of technical knowledge. The ones that don’t think any animals are really tougher than other animals tend to kill a lot, have solid on demand shooting skill, and a real understanding of technical knowledge.

An animal that I think is very tough is pronghorn antelope. Hit badly they go forever.

Actually hit well and they can run 100 yards. CNS hits don't count. We had a lung shot one run 150 years in 2022.

This seems to be a function of the type of terrain and animal habit more than “toughness. A prairie animal who runs at 40-60mph for a mile or more as a survival mechanism, will cover more ground than an animal who’s survival mechanism is to circle around to thick cover, bed down, and hide.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Yes, especially those super tough grizzlies getting killed by 223 FMJs

Ya know I didn’t realize how common this was in the Alaskan bush. I called my companies dealer in Anchorage to talk about my moose hunt in two and half weeks as I’m going DIY and solo.

I talked to two lifelong Alaskans on speaker phone, one of whom is married to a native; and her family has hunted for generations. We chatted for about 30 min of work stuff and ended up talking for over a hour on general moose stuff, the possibility of bears, how they hunt these days, etc.

Basically everyone in their immediate circles (30-40 hunters every year) hunts moose and grizzlies with ARs shooting 223s. They mentioned they would never go back to lever action and bolt action .30 cals of any kind. Very eye opening conversation for me.

 

[Reburn]

An animal that I think is very tough is pronghorn antelope. Hit badly they go forever.

Actually hit well and they can run 100 yards. CNS hits don't count. We had a lung shot one run 150 years in 2022.

Never hit anything in the spine, neck or head that it didn't die. CNS kills very well. But it is easy to screw up.

In my experience of 50 or so antelope shot or perosnally seen shot with a range of calibers and bullets. Antelope are very soft and die very easy. They have a large set of lungs and a pretty forgiving kill zone realitive to the size. Hit in the guts however they can travel 2 counties over before they stop. I have yet to see a known gut shot recovered if a second shot doesnt put them down before they get out of range.

 

[Mojave]

Yes, lots of people say it- generally the same people that think elk are “tough”, think African animals are “tough”. Maybe African animals are “tough”, or maybe the general type of person by and large that go to Africa the most really aren’t good.
To a man every person I know and hunt with that think any NA animal is “tough”, also think African animals are. Every person I know and hunt with that says animals are just tissue and they’re really isn’t anything special about killing any NA animal, have come back from Africa and stated with a shrugg- “the die the same, just shoot them a bit further forward”.

The correlation seems to be, the ones that think animals are “tough” tend to have limited killing experience, poorer shooting skills, and poor factual understanding of technical knowledge. The ones that don’t think any animals are really tougher than other animals tend to kill a lot, have solid on demand shooting skill, and a real understanding of technical knowledge.






This seems to be a function of the type of terrain and animal habit more than “toughness. A prairie animal who runs at 40-60mph for a mile or more as a survival mechanism, will cover more ground than an animal who’s survival mechanism is to circle around to thick cover, bed down, and hide.

Ok yes, but is that not the same answer?

I have shot animals badly and had them lay down and ponder their death. I have shot animals in the lungs (lungs seem to be the primary problem) and had them run a long damn way.

CNS shots kill everything well, the nature of putting a bullet there.

A roe deer shot in a bad spot will lay down and try to die. A pronghorn will cover miles and miles of bloody Wyoming. I think antelope are tough, when badly shot. I have also seen them fall like a hammer, when shot well.

My African PH tells me that zebras are that absolute devil if you don't hit them well. Oryx are the same.

Heart and CNS shots kill fairly quickly. Lungs kill just slower.

 

[LongWayAround]

Basically everyone in their immediate circles (30-40 hunters every year) hunts moose and grizzlies with ARs shooting 223s. They mentioned they would never go back to lever action and bolt action .30 cals of any kind. Very eye opening conversation for me.

But have they been to Namibia?

 

[khuber84]

I have hunted in Namibia and been on hunts for gemsbok oryx in New Mexico and Aoudad in New Mexico and Texas.

I have killed 14 African big game animals including a mix of kudu, zebra, oryx, springbok, hartebeest, blesbok, steinbok and baboon.

Zebras are probably tougher than any big game animal in America other than bears, they re probably tougher than anything in Africa other than the elephant, hippo, rhino and maybe buffalo.

The modern day sniper crew went to Africa to cull mountain zebra that were way over populated. They killed a ton with 65cm shooting 143eldx factory ammo. The pro hunters advised 300wm or bigger, said your lil bb gun isn't enough, until they watched the carnage and effectiveness of the small case/bullet. There is a podcast about this, these pro hunters were shocked a 65 going slow was this good at killing. So the experience of pro hunters in places that have "laws" for cartridge pretty much tells me they have little to no experience because nobody can try it.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok yes, but is that not the same answer?

No. “Tough” to me would be two different animals of the same general size, blood volume, and chest volume- and you shoot 100 animal #1’s in the chest with a bullet that creates a 4” wide wound, and they run 20-50 yards and fall within 10-20 seconds- as expected. Then you shoot 100 animal type #2 with that same bullet causing 4” wide wounds through both lungs and they all tend to live for 3 hours.

It’s just not a thing when seen in sufficient numbers- destroy a 4” cone in any normal sized animals lungs, they are going to die pretty quick. But, what tends to happen with elk, bear, mountain goat and African animals, is that they get a reputation of “tough” from poor shooting, or because they are big, the people use “tough” bullets that cause very narrow wound channels, and from cartridges and rifles that they shoot even more poorly, then they hit animals poorly, and the cycle of belief in “toughness” continues.

I have shot animals badly and had them lay down and ponder their death. I have shot animals in the lungs (lungs seem to be the primary problem) and had them run a long damn way.

I’ve had whitetail doe’s gut shot lay down within 40 yards and die 6 hours later, and I’ve had whitetail doe’s gut shot take off at a full run, cover nearly a mile going down 700’ish vertical feet to a creek, then up 500 or 600’ish vertical feet, and cover an additional 500 or so yards cross hill to get to a thicket. When I walked in on her 4-5 hours later, she was bedded and bobbing her head. Both of those deer were shot on the exact same trail, from the same stand, with the exact same rifle, and ammo from the same fix.

Individual animals have differing personalities and temperaments just like individual people. Some give up easy, and some fight.

A roe deer shot in a bad spot will lay down and try to die. A pronghorn will cover miles and miles of bloody Wyoming. I think antelope are tough, when badly shot. I have also seen them fall like a hammer, when shot well.

And I’ve seen poorly shot antelope stand there for several minutes without moving. And slowly walk off. And take off at a dead run. Animals are individuals. I haven’t seen a massive difference in reaction from pronghorn and whitetails being shot in the exact same terrain- prairie whitetail also tend to run for a long ways from poor hits.

Also, pronghorns (like other herd, prairie animals) tend to cause hunters to lose their minds much more so than other animals.

 

[Fever Buck]

Bears are “tough”?

What are your thoughts on 9mm carry for Grizz country? Was thinking about carrying just regular FMJ in my P365 Macro when I move to Wyoming later this month. I’m not great at shooting Buffalo bore in my G40 10mm and figured it’s gotta be better for me to carry something I can shoot well.

 

[Formidilosus]

What are your thoughts on 9mm carry for Grizz country? Was thinking about carrying just regular FMJ in my P365 Macro when I move to Wyoming later this month. I’m not great at shooting Buffalo bore in my G40 10mm and figured it’s gotta be better for me to carry something I can shoot well.

FMJ wouldn’t be a logical preference regardless of cartridge as they tend to skip off of bone. As for cartridge- shrugg. A bullet that penetrates 12+ inches after going through the FBI auto glass portion of gel testing will make it to the brain and/or lungs of any bear alive.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

In my experience of 50 or so antelope shot or perosnally seen shot with a range of calibers and bullets. Antelope are very soft and die very easy. They have a large set of lungs and a pretty forgiving kill zone realitive to the size. Hit in the guts however they can travel 2 counties over before they stop. I have yet to see a known gut shot recovered if a second shot doesnt put them down before they get out of range.

You should see some of the antelope this dude has killed. Brutes!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

But have they been to Namibia?

Did not ask sorry.

 

[Fever Buck]

FMJ wouldn’t be a logical preference regardless of cartridge as they tend to skip off of bone. As for cartridge- shrugg. A bullet that penetrates 12+ inches after going through the FBI auto glass portion of gel testing will make it to the brain and/or lungs of any bear alive.

Good to know. What would you recommend using for 9mm?

 

[sturner88]

While we’re waiting on the tracking dogs for oryx number two (buddy shooting 28 nosler) i’ll cape up the these critters. Entrance on the Aoudad. (no exit)

Bit of a rodeo, but today’s events underscore shot placement and rifle manipulation over cartridge.