209 Primers Handling Pressure?

[PathFinder]

This year I purchased a 45 cal Knight Ultralite with a Lehigh breech plug. The gun is fantastic, very accurate and very capable of 300 yards with the open sights. Ended up really liking it and filling two tags with it.
I'm shooting 80 gr by mass of BH209 with a 275 grain Arrowhead XLD. The only issue I'm having is with the Cheddite 209 primers. When removing them from the gun, I have to recock it and drop the firing pin on them a few times to get them to fall out. The primer cup is usually damaged, and in some cases completely blown. This didn't happen at 70 grains with a 250 grain bullet.
Reducing the load is one option, but not my preference. It's my understanding that some guns are running heavier loads than this, so I'm thinking the primers may be the issue. I've previously shot 150 grain pellet loads in other muzzleloaders without this kind of issue.
I bought the Cheddite primers because they fit/seal well and have a lacquer seal. Would I be better off with Federal or CCI primers? Anyone else have this issue with any 209 primers?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[KHNC]

If i could find 209 primers anywhere, i would buy any brand they have!! But , i normally use CCI with no issues at all up to 150gr powder.

 

[sabotloader]

the rifle was designed to use all primers, but European primers are a little larger in diameter. This can be an issue. To test remove the BP clean the primer pocket. Push the Cheddite down tight into the primer pocket with your thumb. Then pickup the BP and turn it upside down - the primer should easily fall out of the pocket on its own. The Cheddite might not.

I use W209 primers, they are the longest American primer.

Next, Have you cleaned the Flash Channel cavity under the primer? This can make a big difference in the amount of blow back pressure placed on the primer.

For a Knight BP you will need a 5/32" drill bit turned by hand to drill out the carbon deposits in the 'flash channel'. I make a small tool I call a 'Bit on a Stick' for this job.

Hope some of this might help.

 

[GMB54-120]

The Cheddite are very short compared to a Win209 or a Fed209A. Plus the Cheddites are known to have softer anvil metal.

Best solution is shim the primer pocket to get a .003-.005 crush on your primer. Just remember though if you change primers later it will likely be too tight.

 

[MuleyFever]

I have the same issue with CCI magnum primers. I have to cycle the bolt and hit the trigger for the primer to fall out. I am using 85gn of BH209 by weight.

 

[sabotloader]

I have the same issue with CCI magnum primers. I have to cycle the bolt and hit the trigger for the primer to fall out. I am using 85gn of BH209 by weight.

Which rifle? (assuming a Knight) and which weight projectile?

In todays world with primers really hard to come by - you probably have to use what you got! But Mag primers in a Knight system is asking for problems. They are short so they do not seal themselves in the primer pocket. They create a large amount of residue in the breech plug which increase the back pressure on the primer. You really need to clean the flash channel with a drill bit more often. + 85 by weight is a healthy (but safe) load by itself but with a heavier bullet can create a very high back pressure on the primer pushing the actual primer out of the 209 primer cup and back up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt. Lifting the hammer and pulling the trigger reseats the prime in the primer cup.

You might take a look at this post - especially the UPDATE post.

Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket - updated 4/7/16

OK finally getting time to get to this. I am not the best writer in the world so I am hoping this makes sense to most. Headspace or the lack of can be one of the biggest reasons that a primer from the battery cup is forced up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt. If you look carefully...

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

 

[MuleyFever]

Which rifle? (assuming a Knight) and which weight projectile?

In todays world with primers really hard to come by - you probably have to use what you got! But Mag primers in a Knight system is asking for problems. They are short so they do not seal themselves in the primer pocket. They create a large amount of residue in the breech plug which increase the back pressure on the primer. You really need to clean the flash channel with a drill bit more often. + 85 by weight is a healthy (but safe) load by itself but with a heavier bullet can create a very high back pressure on the primer pushing the actual primer out of the 209 primer cup and back up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt. Lifting the hammer and pulling the trigger reseats the prime in the primer cup.

You might take a look at this post - especially the UPDATE post.

Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket - updated 4/7/16

OK finally getting time to get to this. I am not the best writer in the world so I am hoping this makes sense to most. Headspace or the lack of can be one of the biggest reasons that a primer from the battery cup is forced up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt. If you look carefully...

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

Yeah its a Knight. I put a 45cal Mountaineer barrel in my 50cal U-light. I am using a 300gn full bore projectile. I never had the issue with a max load of BH209 in the 50cal barrel with a 300gn Thor. The breach plug is a new Lehigh and I keep it clean. I also shimmed it to get a better seal. I will check out that post.

 

[sabotloader]

Yeah its a Knight. I put a 45cal Mountaineer barrel in my 50cal U-light. I am using a 300gn full bore projectile. I never had the issue with a max load of BH209 in the 50cal barrel with a 300gn Thor. The breach plug is a new Leigh and I keep it clean. I also shimmed it to get a better seal. I will check out that post.

Yes, the 45 creates more pressure more quickly especially with a projectile heavier than 260 grains. The heavier the projectile the more efficient BH is. The smaller diameter 45 barrel reduces the expansion area in the bore for the pressure and the easiest way out is back through the breech. This is in addition to the pressure that a Mag primer creates. Wish you had some regular 209 to try. It make none to little difference in velocity.

 

[MuleyFever]

Yes, the 45 creates more pressure more quickly especially with a projectile heavier than 260 grains. The heavier the projectile the more efficient BH is. The smaller diameter 45 barrel reduces the expansion area in the bore for the pressure and the easiest way out is back through the breech. This is in addition to the pressure that a Mag primer creates. Wish you had some regular 209 to try. It make none to little difference in velocity.

I actually traded away my standard 209's as BH is said to do better with magnums. Should have kept a box to try.

 

[sabotloader]

I actually traded away my standard 209's as BH is said to do better with magnums. Should have kept a box to try.

You are correct Western did recommend Mags with most rifles to get ignition. But the Knight BP's were built with BH in mind. That is why the Flash Channel is a greater diameter than most.

Which BP do you have a Knight Factory or a Lehigh aftermarket. Guess I should have asked if you can remove the vent liner from the nose of the BP? If you can't them it is a Knight BP. The Lehigh is a better metal (17-4 stainless versus the stadard 416 SS) and since the Vent Liner can be removed it is a lot easier to clean the Flash Channel!

NORMALLY if the Flash Channel is clean - you will be fine for hunting - you normally can shoot 3-4-5 shots before a problem may develope.

 

[MuleyFever]

You are correct Western did recommend Mags with most rifles to get ignition. But the Knight BP's were built with BH in mind. That is why the Flash Channel is a greater diameter than most.

Which BP do you have a Knight Factory or a Lehigh aftermarket. Guess I should have asked if you can remove the vent liner from the nose of the BP? If you can't them it is a Knight BP. The Lehigh is a better metal (17-4 stainless versus the stadard 416 SS) and since the Vent Liner can be removed it is a lot easier to clean the Flash Channel!

NORMALLY if the Flash Channel is clean - you will be fine for hunting - you normally can shoot 3-4-5 shots before a problem may develope.

I actually have both BP's and have the the same primer issue with both. Maybe I will pull the vent liner on the Lehigh and see how dirty it is.

 

[sabotloader]

I actually have both BP's and have the the same primer issue with both. Maybe I will pull the vent liner on the Lehigh and see how dirty it is.

Usually but not always the Vent Liner itself does not plug. The Flash Channel on the other hand does! It is not the normal 1/8" channel it is 5/32" actually it is slightly larger. Without looking I am pretty sure it is a #21 bit.

 

[RMP]

Cheddites are reliable primers, but they are easily pierced. I'm using them in a Traditions Pursuit NW XT with a 209 conversion breech plug, breech face and firing pin. Every shot with the pin pierces the primer. I have to use the 209 breech plug with the musket cap breech face and pin to not pierce the primer. And it is a primer issue. My gun does not pierce Winchester 209s.

Left are the Cheddites hit by the firing pin. Right are the Cheddites (and a few musket caps) hit by the musket cap firing pin.