147 eldm vs 156 EOL terminal and external ballistics

[Overwire]

I'm looking for some info on the effective velocity window and real world bc of the 147 eldm and 156 EOL specifically. I'm not really interested in what ELDMs or bergers of different calibers and/or weights do. Just interested in these two.

What have people seen for real world minimum velocity to still achieve reliable upset on live animals with these two?

What have peoples experience been at impact velocities above 2800 fps?

There is some info floating around about the 147 eldm's having relativelly high bulet-to-bullet bc variation. Is this blown out of proportion? I can't find anything to substantiate this with real world vertical dispersion at long range but it is hard to find any data with relevant sample sizes.

From researching these two bullets there seems to be some info suggesting the 156 EOL may not reliably open/fragment/tumble (whatever a berger does) within a resonable distance (<6") as velocities approach the 2000 fps range. Is this a valid concern? There are lots of examples of the 156 working very well on game at various ranges but most of those examples would still be above 2200 fps. I can't find many/any examples at the lower limit.

On the 147 eldm there are some complaints of the bullet "splashing", "blowing up" or otherwise failing to penetrate at high impact velocities. Any validity to this? I have a hard time believing a 147 grain projectile would just "blow up" and would fail to penetrate to vitals, even at 3k fps, yet there are examples of guys claiming this has happened to them (no pictures though).

I'm trying to determine, as best as possible, which 6.5mm bullet will likely achieve the furthest effective range (reliably) while still functioning at point blank range. The info that's out there seems to be all over the place but generally suggests that with a starting velocity 50 fps faster for the ELDM these two bullets will reach 1800 fps at similar distances (slightly higher real world bc on the berger), the 147 eldm should function down to 1700 fps while it's probably best to keep the berger above 2000 fps, and both will work at close range but the eldm will likelly make a bigger mess if hitting shoulders. Sound about right?

 

[Formidilosus]

What have people seen for real world minimum velocity to still achieve reliable upset on live animals with these two?

Keep the ELD-M above 1,800fps impact. 1,900fps better. Yes, they can and will upset below that, however they also start being erratic at times.

The Berger I want 1,900fps, and 2,000fpsnis better. Yes, they can and will upset below this, they also start getting erratic at times.

What have peoples experience been at impact velocities above 2800 fps?

Zero issues. Shoot the animals in the front half.

There is some info floating around about the 147 eldm's having relativelly high bulet-to-bullet bc variation. Is this blown out of proportion? I can't find anything to substantiate this with real world vertical dispersion at long range but it is hard to find any data with relevant sample sizes.

Completely overblown. Not functionally detectable in the field. It’s a non issue.

From researching these two bullets there seems to be some info suggesting the 156 EOL may not reliably open/fragment/tumble (whatever a berger does) within a resonable distance (<6") as velocities approach the 2000 fps range. Is this a valid concern?

Yes. Though they generally kill fine down to around 1,900fps impact.

On the 147 eldm there are some complaints of the bullet "splashing", "blowing up" or otherwise failing to penetrate at high impact velocities. Any validity to this?

No. The 147’s go through any bone in the front half. Lots of people see a large entrance wound and believe the bullet “blew up”…. As they are standing over a dead animal with holes in both lungs and the base of the bullet on the offside.

I have a hard time believing a 147 grain projectile would just "blow up" and would fail to penetrate to vitals, even at 3k fps, yet there are examples of guys claiming this has happened to them (no pictures though).

Of course there aren’t pictures, because it is not a real thing.

I'm trying to determine, as best as possible, which 6.5mm bullet will likely achieve the furthest effective range (reliably) while still functioning at point blank range. The info that's out there seems to be all over the place but generally suggests that with a starting velocity 50 fps faster for the ELDM these two bullets will reach 1800 fps at similar distances (slightly higher real world bc on the berger), the 147 eldm should function down to 1700 fps while it's probably best to keep the berger above 2000 fps, and both will work at close range but the eldm will likelly make a bigger mess if hitting shoulders. Sound about right?

For most uses they are functionally the same. The biggest difference is that the Berger will have a 3-6” neck length before upset begins, and the ELD-M will have a sub 1” neck length. As well, the Berger will tend to have a rounder/slightly wider wound channel, the ELD-M will be slightly narrower and longer- more like an elongated circle.

 

[eoperator]

Any terminal experience with nose ring cut bullets outside of 115dtac?

 

[Formidilosus]

Any terminal experience with nose ring cut bullets outside of 115dtac?

Not enough to say.

 

[Overwire]

Keep the ELD-M above 1,800fps impact. 1,900fps better. Yes, they can and will upset below that, however they also start being erratic at times.

The Berger I want 1,900fps, and 2,000fpsnis better. Yes, they can and will upset below this, they also start getting erratic at times.




Zero issues. Shoot the animals in the front half.




Completely overblown. Not functionally detectable in the field. It’s a non issue.





Yes. Though they generally kill fine down to around 1,900fps impact.




No. The 147’s go through any bone in the front half. Lots of people see a large entrance wound and believe the bullet “blew up”…. As they are standing over a dead animal with holes in both lungs and the base of the bullet on the offside.






Of course there aren’t pictures, because it is not a real thing.





For most uses they are functionally the same. The biggest difference is that the Berger will have a 3-6” neck length before upset begins, and the ELD-M will have a sub 1” neck length. As well, the Berger will tend to have a rounder/slightly wider wound channel, the ELD-M will be slightly narrower and longer- more like an elongated circle.

Thanks for the very thorough response!

 

[Flyjunky]

@Formidilosus

I’ve heard some talk about jacket inscription between 3,4,5, and 6 groove barrels on the these thinner jacketed bullets. Have you seen or heard of this creating differences in the way the bullet upsets?

 

[Mike D Texas]

I can tell you that a 156 EOL at 3150fps MV is very violent when shooting an antelope with a frontal shot at 225 yards.

No fragments made it past the diaphragm, but the heart and lungs were nearly obliterated and the animal dropped where he stood.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus

I’ve heard some talk about jacket inscription between 3,4,5, and 6 groove barrels on the these thinner jacketed bullets. Have you seen or heard of this creating differences in the way the bullet upsets?

Not that I’ve noticed in animals. Though I’m sure it could.

 

[H80Hunter]

I’ve got a cool pic of a whitetail heart from this fall. 147 ELDM at about 2400 fps impact velocity.

 

[Cactus kid]

@Formidilosus is there any truth to the rumors of the 147s coming apart in flight with a 6.5 prc or similar velocities/twist rate?

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus is there any truth to the rumors of the 147s coming apart in flight with a 6.5 prc or similar velocities/twist rate?

There were instances that I am aware of a few years ago. Mainly with Proof barrels, but there were a couple of others as well. Haven’t seen or heard it happen in several years since. I have not, and no one that I am around that shoots and cleans (or doesn’t) as I do have had any issues, and I/we have shot quite a bit of 147’s.

 

[Brontosaurus]

but the eldm will likelly make a bigger mess if hitting shoulders. Sound about right?

yes

140 ELDM 2500ish fps impact

 

[Cactus kid]

There were instances that I am aware of a few years ago. Mainly with Proof barrels, but there were a couple of others as well. Haven’t seen or heard it happen in several years since. I have not, and no one that I am around that shoots and cleans (or doesn’t) as I do have had any issues, and I/we have shot quite a bit of 147’s.

thanks. Unfortunately i shoot a proof barrel (cause im a basic bro like that) and this makes me a little wary. Will load some 147s this year because I have been impressed with that bullet with other calibers and see how it goes. Thanks as always for the response

 

[Cactus kid]

View attachment 643108
yes

140 ELDM 2500ish fps impact

DANG.

just a friendly reminder that 100% of the meat is wasted if the animal is never recovered. Ill take a little meat loss on shoulders for a quickly downed animal.

 

[Brontosaurus]

DANG.

just a friendly reminder that 100% of the meat is wasted if the animal is never recovered. Ill take a little meat loss on shoulders for a quickly downed animal.

Yeah and because I butcher stuff myself I was able to make some careful cuts and still got a couple lbs off that shoulder

 

[woods89]

Yeah and because I butcher stuff myself I was able to make some careful cuts and still got a couple lbs off that shoulder

I've found that if you separate muscle groups, most of the bloodshot stuff is between membrane layers, and the right trimming technique means that even on the wounds that look rough at the start, actual meat loss is not usually as bad as a person thinks.
Butchering your own animals is the way to go!

 

[Brontosaurus]

I've found that if you separate muscle groups, most of the bloodshot stuff is between membrane layers, and the right trimming technique means that even on the wounds that look rough at the start, actual meat loss is not usually as bad as a person thinks.
Butchering your own animals is the way to go!

This has been my experience exactly

 

[Balderdash]

Thanks for posting. I have quite a stockpile of the 143-147's, but will definitely be picking some of the 156's up for use in a 6.5 PRC.

 

[Balderdash]

@Formidilosus is there any truth to the rumors of the 147s coming apart in flight with a 6.5 prc or similar velocities/twist rate?

A work associate of mine had 2 147's out of a CM do this during a competition approximately 5-6 years ago. Was witnessed by a spotter. Was a Savage OEM barrel. He reached out to Hornady and they told him it was due to a rough barrel and wasn't unheard of with the Savages. IIRC, they took care of him with a nice pile of free bullets for his trouble.

 

[wind gypsy]

Seems like hot barrels with some fire cracking is a good recipe for making ELDm’s go poof just from reading the internets.

Lots of rpms and a tight bores too.