100% powder burn... does it matter?

[Brad1974]

In your experience does getting 100% powder burn really matter?
A little history about why I ask the question. I have an old Rem 721 30-06 that I have spent years trying to get it to shoot tight groups. I stuck with mainly H4350 powder because it was supposed to be the gold standard for that cartridge in the bullet weight class I was using. I tried several bullets, fine tuned the loads and the seating depth, and just when I thought I finally had a good recipe that gave me some tight groups, I would get quite a bit of inconsistency and groups would open up. I watched several youtube videos that had mentioned using Gordons Reloading software, and one of the primary goals seemed to be to find powders that would burn 100%. I did my analysis on my rifle/rounds, and discovered I was getting somewhere around 90% powder burn. I read elsewhere that having incomplete powder burn could lead to inconsistency... I thought, well maybe that was my problem. I had been hoping to rebarrel my Rem 721 rifle into a 280 AI, and just ordered my barrel, so I won't get to try other powders in my 30-06. Now I will have all of the components I will need for my 280 AI except the powder... so, doing research in forums and in the GRT I have found a handful of options that appear to be good, and some that others are saying are good, but according to GRT are not getting 100% burn... so, back to my question. Does that even matter? Does incomplete powder burn cause inconsistency? I just want to find a powder that gets decent velocity (not looking for the fastest), shoots good groups, and gets reasonably good SD/ES. Can powders that don't burn 100% do that consistently? Or is it unimportant?

 

[journeyman713]

Winchester invested a lot of time and money on a more efficient powder burn in the 300 win mag, the 300 WSM was introduced as a result.

 

[tacks]

No idea but...........I try for 100 percent burn on the 308 with the Sythe ti. My thinking is suppressor is less likely to blow with powder not burning in it.

 

[Caseknife]

I would think that 100% powder burn would be the most efficient, therefore lower ES, but have never tested that theory at all and have not read any specific testing of that. With QL I try to work with loads that are 100% burn and close to case capacity.

 

[Brad1974]

I would think that 100% powder burn would be the most efficient, therefore lower ES, but have never tested that theory at all and have not read any specific testing of that. With QL I try to work with loads that are 100% burn and close to case capacity.

I would think that as well. I have just noticed that some of the most used powders in bith 280 Ai & in 30-06 are not 100% burnt, yet people must be getting decent results. I have read that having less than 100% burnt can increase inconsistency, but am curious if anyone kbow that to be true or untrue. I am curious, if you can get consistency with less than 100% burnt, how much mess than 100% will still give very good results? and how accurate is GRT when it comes to the % powder burn?

 

[WeiserBucks]

I have a 20" 7 NMI and it works great, no way it's getting 100% burn.

 

[RME]

I've shot a lot of rifle cartridges in specialty pistols. The same powders that tend to perform best in rifle length barrels also tend to perform best in pistol length barrels. Don't overthink it.

 

[jesco88]

For H4350 in GRT- I see pretty big differences with 30-06 and 6.5CM with real data over what it models. For example, in an 18" 6.5 CM, I am 2638fps with real life data, but it shows I should only expect 2548. This means the GRT pressure data is not accurate, and therefore the burn rate is also off. As you get higher pressure, you burn more of the powder charge. So don't put too much stock in what that software says, just believe the target.

 

[Vern400]

I was running IMR 4064 in an m4 with a 16 inch barrel and getting es of about 159. 14 INCH flame! 55 gr bullet too light for a full burn.

I changed to CFE223 and got the es below 40, and the SD in the low teens.

 

[wind gypsy]

I dont use GRT or QL so have no idea if they say any of my loads are/arent 100% burn. Had plenty of loads with slow powders that may not get 100% burn and also faster powders with low case fill ratios that perform very well.

There's probably something to it but I think people get to wrapped around what some program says. I tend to just use known powders/bullets that perform well for lots of people in a given cartridge and not get too worried about the rest.

 

[willfrye027]

You can mentally masturbate over a million different things with reloading..at the end of the day your barrel either likes a bullet/powder combo or it doesn’t..

 

[AkMtnRunner]

I think technically yes, it does matter, but so do so many other factors. And all of those factors matter differently. If your shooting F class, there’s about 101 things that matter. Hunting level accuracy, maybe 10 things or less. So it all depends on what the goal is.

I don’t argue with competitive shooters that hold their noses up at powders that don’t get 100% burn, I also can’t argue with hunters using “slow” powders in 16” barrels that put 5 shots into one MOA in the field. Somewhere it matters, you have to decide if it matters to you.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I tried several bullets, fine tuned the loads and the seating depth, and just when I thought I finally had a good recipe that gave me some tight groups, I would get quite a bit of inconsistency and groups would open up.

Were you testing and "tuning" with 3 shot groups?

 

[Brad1974]

Were you testing and "tuning" with 3 shot groups?

usually 3 shot groups, but i would retest. I would think I found a node & then a good seating depth that would give me good groups multiple range trips, then it would shoot poorly the next time. I assumed since a certain load & seat depth would give me the best groups multiple times in a row, that it was going to work, but it just wouldnt do it consistently. maybe it was just too small of a sample size, but if thats the case the rifle just wouldnt shoot anything we'll consistently.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

You can mentally masturbate over a million different things with reloading..at the end of the day your barrel either likes a bullet/powder combo or it doesn’t..

You are 100% correct. If a powder doesn't perform well, there is nothing you can do to make your rifle like it.....so try another powder. My 30-06 only really performs with one powder/bullet combination. When I ran out of that powder, nothing I did would make the groups as good as it was. I finally got some of the old powder and duplicated my old load and it was back to shooting great groups.

 

[Brad1974]

You can mentally masturbate over a million different things with reloading..at the end of the day your barrel either likes a bullet/powder combo or it doesn’t..

this is exactly why I asked the question in the first place. With a large number of potential powders out there, finding out what actually makes a difference will narrow down the options to test. It's not about using a software to determine which powder is going to be "the one". It's about taking the 15 potential powders and narrowing them down to 2-3 with potential to try first, & to rule out the ones that have very low potential to work optimally.

 

[Harvey_NW]

usually 3 shot groups, but i would retest. I would think I found a node & then a good seating depth that would give me good groups multiple range trips, then it would shoot poorly the next time. I assumed since a certain load & seat depth would give me the best groups multiple times in a row, that it was going to work, but it just wouldnt do it consistently. maybe it was just too small of a sample size, but if thats the case the rifle just wouldnt shoot anything we'll consistently.

3 shot groups is the culprit. Even if they repeat on different days, it's just too small of a sample size, as you alluded to in the end of your response. Seating depth testing and searching for "nodes" proves to be far less beneficial in large sample studies. In the majority of cases the rifle either shoots the combo well, or it doesn't. And if you tried multiple combo's and couldn't get anything to shoot well, it's just a dud barrel.

this is exactly why I asked the question in the first place. With a large number of potential powders out there, finding out what actually makes a difference will narrow down the options to test. It's not about using a software to determine which powder is going to be "the one". It's about taking the 15 potential powders and narrowing them down to 2-3 with potential to try first, & to rule out the ones that have very low potential to work optimally.

IMHO, using software to predict powder burn to try to optimize your load isn't a bad idea if you have access to it and input all the proper parameters (I don't use software, but I've read that can make a big difference), but it's not the end of the world. My preference is to use a known powder for the cartridge, and test. If you're trying to shoot 1,000 yards and the ES of a combo is 150fps, it probably matters. If the software shows it's only 95% burn rate, but your ES on a decent sample is <50fps, and your 10 shot group dispersion is <1.5", it doesn't.

 

[jesco88]

this is exactly why I asked the question in the first place. With a large number of potential powders out there, finding out what actually makes a difference will narrow down the options to test. It's not about using a software to determine which powder is going to be "the one". It's about taking the 15 potential powders and narrowing them down to 2-3 with potential to try first, & to rule out the ones that have very low potential to work optimally.

For 30-06, I've always had good luck with H4350. For most 180 class bullets I've tried, 58-60gr of H4350 is usually pretty accurate and fast. I just look at bullet's manufacturer's load data and take off 1-2 grains, depending on the gun/brass, and load 10 rounds. 1st shot is just a fouler, then shoot the remaining 9 rounds in 3 shot strings with 5minutes between each string, and if 9 holes are under an inch at 100yds, I'm done.

But if it's not shooting good enough for you, then you have 3 options; switch bullets, powder or barrel. Assuming you don't want to just give up on whatever bullet you're using, and you probably don't want to rebarrel, I'd try Staball 6.5, RL16/17, N550. Just depends on what weight bullet you're using. You generally want to go with "faster" burning powders for lighter bullets and slower powders for heavier bullets. But those rules are not set in stone. I've had to go with what would be too fast of a powder than I would have liked to get the accuracy I wanted, knowing that I wouldn't get as much velocity as I could have gotten if I had gone with a slower burning powder.

 

[Brad1974]

For 30-06, I've always had good luck with H4350. For most 180 class bullets I've tried, 58-60gr of H4350 is usually pretty accurate and fast. I just look at bullet's manufacturer's load data and take off 1-2 grains, depending on the gun/brass, and load 10 rounds. 1st shot is just a fouler, then shoot the remaining 9 rounds in 3 shot strings with 5minutes between each string, and if 9 holes are under an inch at 100yds, I'm done.

But if it's not shooting good enough for you, then you have 3 options; switch bullets, powder or barrel. Assuming you don't want to just give up on whatever bullet you're using, and you probably don't want to rebarrel, I'd try Staball 6.5, RL16/17, N550. Just depends on what weight bullet you're using. You generally want to go with "faster" burning powders for lighter bullets and slower powders for heavier bullets. But those rules are not set in stone. I've had to go with what would be too fast of a powder than I would have liked to get the accuracy I wanted, knowing that I wouldn't get as much velocity as I could have gotten if I had gone with a slower burning powder.

Mine is a 30-06, and I had tried several factory loads, and a couple different bullets previously, and nothing shot even acceptable groups. I started hand loading and was using H4350 with 178 gr ELD-m bullets, in lapua brass. I always heard H4350 was the gold standard for 160-180 grain bullets in the 30-06, so I did not try any other powders. After extensive load testing and seating depth testing, I was able to get about .6-.7" groups with the seat depth around 0.060 off the lands. That was best in a couple different tests I did, so I thought it was the load for me... until I kept using it and the groups became as bad as everything else. Running all of my actual numbers through GRT I discovered that I was not likely getting complete burnt powder, and I have read that having less than 100% burn could potentially lead to inconsistency... since inconsistency is exactly what I was seeing, It lead me down this rabbit hole of how to find more optimal powders. I have seen several reloader articles and videos that will only consider powders that get 100% burn.

Now I have ordered a new barrel for it, and decided to switch it to a 280 AI, just to get a little better wind management with a slightly faster bullet with a better BC.... that and I just have always wanted a 280 AI... I already have accumulated some Peterson Brass (supposed to be the highest quality brass made in 280 AI), a good pile of Berger Classic hunter bullets (so they should be very consistent and forgiving), and both CCI & Federal primers (I'll test those after finding the best powder). So my components are good enough to avoid blaming them. Now I really just need to find the right powder. I am willing to test enough to find the one that works best, I just don't want to waste time on ones that are unlikely to give good performance, and I would like to narrow it down to what look like the best options first. Right now I have found the Range of powders to run from H4350 on the fast end, to H4831 and N560 on the slower end. H4350 would likely only give me around 86-87% case fill, but would burn 100%. H4831 I would have to compress to around 103-104% case fill to get to the right pressure range, however it would only get around 90% burnt powder... Between those two extreems, there are some options that look good, like N555, N160, Ramshot Hunter, IMR 4831, and AA4350. I've seen alot of people get great results with N560, but it will be around 95% burnt powder... which brings me back to the original question... does that matter? and if it does, at what point does it matter? Every powder I have listed is worth a try, plus probably a few others, but it would cost me an arm and a leg just to test them all. I am planning to test H4831sc first, only because that is the only one I have on hand. I am trying to figure out which powder I would test next if the H4831 is not giving the results I can live with.

 

[mtnbound]

In your experience does getting 100% powder burn really matter?
A little history about why I ask the question. I have an old Rem 721 30-06 that I have spent years trying to get it to shoot tight groups. I stuck with mainly H4350 powder because it was supposed to be the gold standard for that cartridge in the bullet weight class I was using. I tried several bullets, fine tuned the loads and the seating depth, and just when I thought I finally had a good recipe that gave me some tight groups, I would get quite a bit of inconsistency and groups would open up. I watched several youtube videos that had mentioned using Gordons Reloading software, and one of the primary goals seemed to be to find powders that would burn 100%. I did my analysis on my rifle/rounds, and discovered I was getting somewhere around 90% powder burn. I read elsewhere that having incomplete powder burn could lead to inconsistency... I thought, well maybe that was my problem. I had been hoping to rebarrel my Rem 721 rifle into a 280 AI, and just ordered my barrel, so I won't get to try other powders in my 30-06. Now I will have all of the components I will need for my 280 AI except the powder... so, doing research in forums and in the GRT I have found a handful of options that appear to be good, and some that others are saying are good, but according to GRT are not getting 100% burn... so, back to my question. Does that even matter? Does incomplete powder burn cause inconsistency? I just want to find a powder that gets decent velocity (not looking for the fastest), shoots good groups, and gets reasonably good SD/ES. Can powders that don't burn 100% do that consistently? Or is it unimportant?

You stated you had some good tight groups and they just started to open up. If you didn’t change any components or processes during this time then I would say you or some other factor like scope movement, action tightness, etc..is the issue.
You have to have some pretty wild SD/ES to actually see a difference on target especially at 100y. I worked up a load recently that had over a 100fps ES and it still grouped great at 100y.
A full case can help with SD/ES but you and your system need to be at a high level to realize that on target, especially when you shoot higher round count groups.