10 shot group advice

[Harvey_NW]

My advice is to shoot your groups the way you're going to apply it in the field. Factory model 10 barrel is button rifled and might have some pent up stress that starts to pitch shots as it gets hot, that's not uncommon. But it may never affect you in the field if you recognize it and keep it in mind. So instead shoot 3 - 4 shot groups that include cold bores, all at the same POA, and see what that aggregate group looks like.

 

[Mikido]

Appreciate everyone’s candid and clear advice. Great forum.

 

[mt100gr.]

Appreciate everyone’s candid and clear advice. Great forum.

Did you break your form between the different "temperature" groups, or just fire 10 in a row and differentiate temp by where they were in the string?

And how is your cheek weld?

I have had a couple rifles that are sensitive to my form and I can shoot multiple tight groups around POA if my form isn't replicated perfectly.

 

[jjjones7]

My advice is to shoot your groups the way you're going to apply it in the field. Factory model 10 barrel is button rifled and might have some pent up stress that starts to pitch shots as it gets hot, that's not uncommon. But it may never affect you in the field if you recognize it and keep it in mind. So instead shoot 3 - 4 shot groups that include cold bores, all at the same POA, and see what that aggregate group looks like.

Perfect advice right there. I don’t really see the point of 10 shot groups with a hunting. Rifle. Match rifles are a totally different animal, and I do shoot 10’ers out of them. What I do with my hunting rifles is 5 shots (don’t remember the last time I shot 5 shots hunting) but I’ll shoot 5 let it cool shoot 5 more. I do it 3-4 times on exactly the same card stock paper then take it to a window and transpose all shots on one paper. You get a good sample size without as much shooter error, sub 9 lb magnums can take their toll and cause anticipation or flinches you don’t get shooting match cartridges through much heavier rifles/barrels. It will also give you confidence in your optic/barrels ability to hold POI or if you’re deficient in that area.

 

[SDHNTR]

Zero it at 100. You (collective you, not specific you) can’t even see well enough at 200 for a totally precise hold. How do you know if that group represents your true cone, or if your point of aim was shifting around a bit?

 

[journeyman713]

The 300wsm is what I use for elk, and prefer the 200 yard zero.
Where I hunt, chances of getting a 100yd shot are relatively small and so is the difference in point of impact (1.2"), vs double that for a 100yd zero shooting 200yds.
To me it seems like less margin for error going with the farther zero.

 

[Mikido]

Appreciate everyone’s candid and clear adbi

Did you break your form between the different "temperature" groups, or just fire 10 in a row and differentiate temp by where they were in the string?

And how is your cheek weld?

I have had a couple rifles that are sensitive to my form and I can shoot multiple tight groups around POA if my form isn't replicated perfectly.

Form felt good, but probably broke it. The first blue group was 4 in a row, followed immediately by the 2 top “fliers”. (I had experienced earlier during sighting in that after ~4 shots without break the impacts would starting walking). I set the gun down for a while to cool, and the last 4 on the bottom I took long breaks between shots on a “warm” barrel.

I think sticking to 3-4 shots on a cold barrel like some have mentioned makes the most sense and will employ that going forward.

My real issue now is the lack of 300wsm on the market…

 

[SDHNTR]

The 300wsm is what I use for elk, and prefer the 200 yard zero.
Where I hunt, chances of getting a 100yd shot are relatively small and so is the difference in point of impact (1.2"), vs double that for a 100yd zero shooting 200yds.
To me it seems like less margin for error going with the farther zero.

Here we go again…

 

[SDHNTR]

Perfect advice right there. I don’t really see the point of 10 shot groups with a hunting. Rifle. Match rifles are a totally different animal, and I do shoot 10’ers out of them. What I do with my hunting rifles is 5 shots (don’t remember the last time I shot 5 shots hunting) but I’ll shoot 5 let it cool shoot 5 more. I do it 3-4 times on exactly the same card stock paper then take it to a window and transpose all shots on one paper. You get a good sample size without as much shooter error, sub 9 lb magnums can take their toll and cause anticipation or flinches you don’t get shooting match cartridges through much heavier rifles/barrels. It will also give you confidence in your optic/barrels ability to hold POI or if you’re deficient in that area.

That’s still a 10 shot group. Or 15 or 20.

 

[hunting307]

I’m new to LR. This is a 300wsm factory rifle with factory ammo, on a 200yd zero. My goal is to hunt elk out to 600 effectively.

This is at 200yd.
I’d like your input on keeping zero as is, or adjusting (and why).

The blue group was on a cold barrel.
The green group on a “medium” temp barrel.
The flyers were on a hot barrel.

Appreciate your time.



View attachment 522851

I personally wouldn't change a thing if you're comfortable with the math. I like a 100 yr zero bc I have a turret system on my scopes so it just makes it easier and less user error if I set it like that. Those groups are great, good shooting. You'll not have any issue killing a elk shooting like that.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

the only reason to zero at a distance longer than 100 is if your scope does not dial reliably - which is exactly why for years I zeroed at 200, and is probably why the prevailing wisdom for ~80 years was to "zero" 2-3" high at 100 yards. If your scope tracks and holds zero, then 100 yards allows you to establish a more reliable zero, because all shooter errors are minimized.

One more note on zeroing - if you're using a hornady bullet, the 4DOF app will also allow you to record your "zero angle" instead of a traditional zero in the app. Using their bullet drag models, they claim that using this process is the most accurate way to predict a bullet's trajectory as conditions (altitude, temp, pressure, shot angle, etc) change.

 

[SDHNTR]

the only reason to zero at a distance longer than 100 is if your scope does not dial reliably - which is exactly why for years I zeroed at 200, and is probably why the prevailing wisdom for ~80 years was to "zero" 2-3" high at 100 yards. If your scope tracks and holds zero, then 100 yards allows you to establish a more reliable zero, because all shooter errors are minimized.

One more note on zeroing - if you're using a hornady bullet, the 4DOF app will also allow you to record your "zero angle" instead of a traditional zero in the app. Using their bullet drag models, they claim that using this process is the most accurate way to predict a bullet's trajectory as conditions (altitude, temp, pressure, shot angle, etc) change.

This. A 200 yard zero is simply antiquated thinking with today’s equipment. I used to think this way. And then I tried it and realized the error of my ways.

 

[Mikido]

All great points. Thanks for the responses

 

[MallardSX2]

Why a 10-shot group at all? You got extra ammo lying around?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Why a 10-shot group at all? You got extra ammo lying around?

A 10+ shot group starts to give you a decent indication of the what the system is capable of in terms of the rifles dispersion, and shooter ability. It also gives a more precise zero location. Small sample size cherry picked groups and discounted fliers leave too much margin for error, and can leave you chasing your tail.

This is a custom rifle and load that shoots very consistent, so after a 5 shot group I made my adjustment and confirmed my zero with 5 shot groups including cold bores, on 2 different days.


This is a factory rifle with match ammo that didn't really show where my aggregate zero would be until I shot 10 and was able to see the cone start to form. If I had tried to zero based on 3 or 5 shot groups, I would have been chasing my tail.

 

[ORJoe]

Why a 10-shot group at all? You got extra ammo lying around?

"Where will the bullet go next time I pull the trigger?"
3 shots tells you nice things, 10 shots tells you the truth.

 

[SDHNTR]

Why a 10-shot group at all? You got extra ammo lying around?

To identify your rifle’s cone. Anything less is not statistically significant to tell you what your rifle is truly doing with that load. 3 shot groups could just be luck. 5 shot groups are better but don’t really confirm a true zero. 10 shot groups and greater give you real information ruling out chance and other variables.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Guys seem to not have a true understanding of how alignment works, yet spout their opinions as facts for a guy trying to learn. Stepping back to 200 yards after a 100 yard zero can be quite telling depending on the rifle, scope, setup, chambering, etc.

No scope and rifle is perfectly “aligned” and we aren’t shooting in a gravity free chamber. What happens, and what gets exaggerated the further the distance gets is the simple fact that the barrel and vertical/horizontal scope axis are never perfectly aligned. We “adjust” that out with the scopes built in (normally crappy) erectors. When we “sight in” all we are doing is aligning the line of sight to match or intersect the bullet path at one point and distance. The behavior of the bullet under the forces of nature causes the bullet path travelled to intersect our “sight in” line at our 2nd point, our target. When we adjust our alignment in both vertices the same forces of nature that cause the bullet to “drop” like everyone expects, applies to “windage” as well. You can put your level bubble on top of your scope and think you have everything “aligned” properly with a certain "yardage sight in" but your bullet WILL diverge horizontally as well. It’s simple physics and alignment error. Its actually relatively simple alignment error that we are able to correct out with multiple angles for a true sight in to a fixed point and resection when surveying. Take 3 shots from 3 different strong angles with a total station is the only way to “sight in” to a single fixed prism or target. This is true alignment. We can get surprisingly close with a rifle and scope in both vertices but it’s all still coming from a single point to single point localization. This translates to deviation in both vertices, especially the further the distance you travel from your single localization point.

100 yard sight ins work so well because it hits a bit of sweet spot in shooter repeatability and lessening as many outside factors as possible; while still getting "far enough" away for a representation of the alignment. Depending on the shooter ability/repeatability, weather, and other outside factors, it's incorrect to state as fact that moving to 200 yards isn't a better representation of the alignment. It's just not always practical, repeatable, and in the realm of a shooters abilities.

 

[Runs-with-elk]

I adjusted the trigger down to 2.5 lbs, the limit of the adjustment and what im comfortable with. I have bedded another rifle before with good results, but it’s also one of those if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Accurizing the rifle is the first step in getting the accuracy you are after. Sounds like the trigger is about right for hunting. Bedding the action and free floating the barrel is key. I use Glass Bed from Brownells for that work.
Make sure your scope is properly fit to the rings (aligned and not binding in the rings). Use an alignment bar and lapping tool to eliminate that potential issue. Make sure your mounts are torqued to proper spec and locked in with purple thread lock. The scope MUST BE vertically aligned with the bore of the rifle when installed.
Once that is done, accurizing the load you use in that specific rifle is the next step. Working up a load requires testing as many different combinations of case, primer, powder and projectiles as you have patience and $ to do. Sometimes it can take a few seasons to get that dialed in. If you don't reload, then try as many different off the shelf loads as you can find and pick the one that shoots best.
In essence, eliminate any and all variables in the rifle, sighting system and ammunition before assessing repeatable strings for accuracy. What remains is the inherent capability of the rifle and shooter. Sometimes the barrel profle and or bore/rifling are simply not up to what you are asking of them

 

[jjjones7]

That’s still a 10 shot group. Or 15 or 20.

It is but with lightweight magnum hunting rifles I’ve found shooting them 5 at a time more of a test of rifle than of the shooters ability. Heavy rifles in lighter cartridges no problem. But it’s kind of like the famous Clint Eastwood quote: “ a man’s got to know his limitations”