10 shot group advice

[SDHNTR]

It is but with lightweight magnum hunting rifles I’ve found shooting them 5 at a time more of a test of rifle than of the shooters ability. Heavy rifles in lighter cartridges no problem. But it’s kind of like the famous Clint Eastwood quote: “ a man’s got to know his limitations”

All the more reason for 10+. When zeroing, you aren’t testing shooter ability. You are testing the rifle, which is why you need at least 10+ shots.

 

[jjjones7]

All the more reason for 10+. When zeroing, you aren’t testing shooter ability. You are testing the rifle, which is why you need at least 10+ shots.

And with my method I get that, just not all in one string of fire. If you do not think shooter error is a factor shooting long strings on lightweight magnums you’re fooling yourself. I shoot lightweight magnums for accuracy literally 100+ shots per day Monday-Friday. Everyone is recoil sensitive, to what extent varies. After years of focusing on proper technique and experience I feel like I’m much less sensitive than the average guy. For the majority of average hunters who will shoot/practice less than what? 100-200 shots a year, it can be a significant factor. I’m not putting you in that group I’m just saying that group is definitely there.

 

[SDHNTR]

Absolutely take all the time you need to or want to in between shots. No one is arguing that point. Shooter fatigue and barrel cooling are very important considerations. All that is totally fine. No dispute.

My only point is that you need a 10+ shot group to verify a rifle’s natural cone. That cannot adequately be done with less shots. The length of time in between trigger squeezes that it takes to print those groups is not what is being discussed here. Take all the time you need.

 

[JGRaider]

I"ve been big game hunting for over 50 years, killed well over 350 big game animals. I've never shot the first 10 shot group of my life, and never had any trouble developing repeatable, accurate hunting loads for any of my rifles.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I"ve been big game hunting for over 50 years, killed well over 350 big game animals. I've never shot the first 10 shot group of my life, and never had any trouble developing repeatable, accurate hunting loads for any of my rifles.

I don't think anybody would contest that small sample size groups will get you dialed in close, and be perfectly efficient at killing within reasonable shot distances. But if you really want to know the precision of the system it takes larger sample sizes. That extra precision matters for long range.

 

[JGRaider]

Can't argue with that. Then there's this thing called wind......which nobody dopes correctly 100% of the time on cold bore shots. Way more to the equation than a good zero.

 

[SDHNTR]

I"ve been big game hunting for over 50 years, killed well over 350 big game animals. I've never shot the first 10 shot group of my life, and never had any trouble developing repeatable, accurate hunting loads for any of my rifles.

So if I asked you what your rifle’s cone in moa or mils was, could you answer? And confirm that your rifle was 100% spot on zeroed dead center?

I could have made that exact same statement you just did. Then I started doing larger groups and guess what, I learned something. It identified things I didn’t realize previously. Like maybe my zero was just a touch off (3-5 shot groups didn’t reveal I was maybe a click off center) and it was also useful for identifying shot anomalies. Everyone, especially anyone interested in dialing out to longer range, should know their rifle’s true cone with their preferred load. 3 or 5 shots doesn’t do it.

Lemme guess, you also “zero” at 200 yards too?

 

[JGRaider]

SDHNTR said "So if I asked you what your rifle’s cone in moa or mils was, could you answer? And confirm that your rifle was 100% spot on zeroed dead center?"

I'd say "I don't give a ratsazzz" about some cone. I can easily kill stuff out to 600 yds given the wind cooperates so my rifles are obviously centered well enough. I've killed a couple thousand inches of mule deer with a freaking Leupold Vari X IIc and VX3. Killing stuff isn't as complicated as some like to make it out to be.

You'd be wrong yet again,,,,,,,100 yd zero.

 

[SDHNTR]

SDHNTR said "So if I asked you what your rifle’s cone in moa or mils was, could you answer? And confirm that your rifle was 100% spot on zeroed dead center?"

I'd say "I don't give a ratsazzz" about some cone. I can easily kill stuff out to 600 yds given the wind cooperates so my rifles are obviously centered well enough. I've killed a couple thousand inches of mule deer with a freaking Leupold Vari X IIc and VX3. Killing stuff isn't as complicated as some like to make it out to be.

You'd be wrong yet again,,,,,,,100 yd zero.

Fair enough. Keep on keeping on.

 

[journeyman713]

Lemme guess, you also “zero” at 200 yards too?

So many guys get bent of shape over "200 yard Zero on the scope".
The OP is talking about 600yd (open Country) hunting.

Do you guys not understand you can also do math, to verify at 100 yards? That's 1.2" high for my set up.
Do you guys not know you will almost never get a 100yd shot in open country?
Do you guys not know the turret clicks-in at zero without looking, and you'll never need to dial it 100yds?
Do you guys not know 200yd zero on the scope means point and shoot out to 250 yards, without doing math and adjusting?

Rant over.

 

[SDHNTR]

So many guys get bent of shape over "200 yard Zero on the scope".
The OP is talking about 600yd (open Country) hunting.

Do you guys not understand you can also do math, to verify at 100 yards? That's 1.2" high for my set up.
Do you guys not know you will almost never get a 100yd shot in open country?
Do you guys not know the turret clicks-in at zero without looking, and you'll never need to dial it 100yds?
Do you guys not know 200yd zero on the scope means point and shoot out to 250 yards, without doing math and adjusting?

Rant over.

Nevermind

 

[KenLee]

One click left for the cold bore and go hunt.

 

[Harvey_NW]

One click left for the cold bore and go hunt.

Cold bore deviation is almost always a myth once the shooter tries to prove it's repeatable. The click left is for spin drift.

 

[KenLee]

Cold bore deviation is almost always a myth once the shooter tries to prove it's repeatable. The click left is for spin drift.

I simply meant that his cold bore group was a little right of center. Shift the zero left an eighth and be done.

 

[Flyjunky]

So many guys get bent of shape over "200 yard Zero on the scope".
The OP is talking about 600yd (open Country) hunting.

Do you guys not understand you can also do math, to verify at 100 yards? That's 1.2" high for my set up.
Do you guys not know you will almost never get a 100yd shot in open country?
Do you guys not know the turret clicks-in at zero without looking, and you'll never need to dial it 100yds?
Do you guys not know 200yd zero on the scope means point and shoot out to 250 yards, without doing math and adjusting?

Rant over.

I've never understood it either.

 

[SDHNTR]

I've never understood it either.

It’s just less precise and introduces more opportunity for error with greater atmospheric influences and vision challenges.

I could provide counterpoints to everything he said but I don’t have the energy and have a feeling it would fall on deaf ears. Some folks are just reluctant to change and possibly learning something new. That old dog and new tricks thing. I’m guilty of it too sometimes.

And ultimately, none of it matters if all one wants to hunt with is a set and forget VariXII. Sight it in high at 100 and go bang away. But if you expect to dial with precision, well, then you need precision to your zero.

 

[Flyjunky]

It’s just less precise and introduces more opportunity for error with greater atmospheric influences and vision challenges.

I could provide counterpoints to everything he said but I don’t have the energy and have a feeling it would fall on deaf ears. Some folks are just reluctant to change and possibly learning something new. That old dog and new tricks thing. I’m guilty of it too sometimes.

And ultimately, none of it matters if all one wants to hunt with is a set and forget VariXII. Sight it in high at 100 and go bang away. But if you expect to dial with precision, well, then you need precision to your zero.

No, I fully get it. I sight in at 100 but I don’t zero at 100.

 

[SDHNTR]

No, I fully get it. I sight in at 100 but I don’t zero at 100.

So you sight in with your shots printing high at 100? Do you then actually measure to verify the center of your group (10+ shots mind you) is precisely as high as it needs to be? So it’s exactly 1.5”, not 1.25 or 1.75? And exactly at 12:00, not 11 or 1?

Because that matters when you dial out to 800+. A 1/4 moa in variance is 2”+ at 800. So if you are off by just that much, you have naturally and intentionally entered that much automatic error into your system.

Isn’t it easier to sight in and zero directly into the bullseye center with no variance instead of shooting into dead space on the paper? Then just twist up to whatever you want your MPBR to be in the field?

 

[Flyjunky]

So you sight in with your shots printing high at 100? Do you then actually measure to verify the center of your group (10+ shots mind you) is precisely as high as it needs to be? So it’s exactly 1.5”, not 1.25 or 1.75? And exactly at 12:00, not 11 or 1?

Because that matters when you dial out to 800+. A 1/4 moa in variance is 2”+ at 800. So if you are off by just that much, you have naturally and intentionally entered that much automatic error into your system.

Isn’t it easier to sight in and zero directly into the bullseye center with no variance instead of shooting into dead space on the paper? Then just twist up to whatever you want your MPBR to be in the field?

I'm 2" exactly at 100...fired, measured, and then I verify drops out to 1200. Initial sight in after getting a load developed is done at 100 over about 20 rounds, I like doing this at a new poi for each group.

Not everyone on here is a variXII shooter who has no idea what they're doing. On average, I'll fire over 500 300wm (215's) and about the same in my 6.5-284 with 140'/156's a year, mostly from 600+. Way more with my .223. Yes, I know where my guns shoot. I don't need the "hornady beatdown" that's become so popular on this site. I know people are just trying to make sure everyone understands a true zero, cone of fire, etc, but it's just becoming a little tiresome. I think we should make a sticky at the the top of the forum "Sighting-in - Getting your Zero" just so we can start linking that just like we do with the scope testing threads when one of these threads comes up.

As far as why I sight in at 2" high at 100? I want as fast a solution as possible for that inside 300 yard shot. You've been on here long enough to have read the moa vs mil threads so I'm sure you know that mil shooters will tell you that mil is faster than moa...well, not having to twist a turret 0-300 is even faster. Farther than that will bring out the rangefinder and dial.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I don't need the "hornady beatdown" that's become so popular on this site. I know people are just trying to make sure everyone understands a true zero, cone of fire, etc, but it's just becoming a little tiresome. I think we should make a sticky at the the top of the forum "Sighting-in - Getting your Zero" just so we can start linking that just like we do with the scope testing threads when one of these threads comes up.

I think the sticky is a good idea. I've never been a Hornady fanboy, or even a fan of podcasts, but I can say personally all the information they've dumped has been tremendously beneficial. Understanding those principles of ballistics and the reality of dispersion and random distribution with larger sample size has definitely improved my confidence in a true zero, and repeatable precision. But I also think you may be setting yourself up for redundancy by chiming in on a 10 shot group advice thread if you already understand it, and reading it is tiresome.