Zeroing with a Lead Sled

[Lawnboi]

Instead of focusing on zeroing I’ll leave this.

Why in the hell does someone care what their rifle will do when not being operated as it would in the field? False confidence, and perception that their rifle will do it in the moment when they need to is a bunch of bull. Hunters need to get off the flippin bench and shoot like you do in the field if you want to truly become proficient. Hurt feelings be damned.

Save your money, and the time lugging that junk around and spend it on ammo and shooting.

That said I do agree with the OP. I don’t think most are zeroing to the degree that they will see a difference, but many are. I see the lead sleds as a gimmick.

As to the tripod comment above, absolutely it can change your poi. That’s why we test, and confirm that when on the rifle in those positions dosnt create a shift. I can absolutely create a shift by pushing more or less into my rifle. Is it much? Usually not, probably acceptable by most hunters standards. But it’s enough to show itself.

 

[Bubblehide]

...

As to the tripod comment above, absolutely it can change your poi. That’s why we test, and confirm that when on the rifle in those positions dosnt create a shift. I can absolutely create a shift by pushing more or less into my rifle. Is it much? Usually not, probably acceptable by most hunters standards. But it’s enough to show itself.

Yet many many many long range hunters are shooting off tripods.
For the life of me, I have no idea why you would push on your rifle.

 

[Mike Islander]

Instead of focusing on zeroing I’ll leave this.

Why in the hell does someone care what their rifle will do when not being operated as it would in the field? False confidence, and perception that their rifle will do it in the moment when they need to is a bunch of bull. Hunters need to get off the flippin bench and shoot like you do in the field if you want to truly become proficient. Hurt feelings be damned.

Save your money, and the time lugging that junk around and spend it on ammo and shooting.

That said I do agree with the OP. I don’t think most are zeroing to the degree that they will see a difference, but many are. I see the lead sleds as a gimmick.

As to the tripod comment above, absolutely it can change your poi. That’s why we test, and confirm that when on the rifle in those positions dosnt create a shift. I can absolutely create a shift by pushing more or less into my rifle. Is it much? Usually not, probably acceptable by most hunters standards. But it’s enough to show itself.

I think you are fighting a straw man. Many have said exactly why they would zero using some sort of system that reduces human-induced variables. Once that is done, it's time to practice in conditions that are as close to the field as possible. Not everyone has enough experience to tell their issues from mechanical issues, nor the time and money to find out.

 

[MaraviaDave]

Yet many many many long range hunters are shooting off tripods.
For the life of me, I have no idea why you would push on your rifle.

I completely agree with Lawnboi’s previous post, which would also be my answer to your question directed towards me earlier.

Yes, I shoot off a tripod while hunting and spend a significant amount of time training with one during the off season.

Having the ability to shoot off a tripod is a huge benefit. Specifically while hunting in brushy areas, where the likelihood of getting a prone shot is very unlikely.

The last 4 bulls my brother and I have killed have been off a tripod. Three bulls were killed standing behind a tripod and one bull was killed sitting behind a tripod.

The Really Right Stuff Ascend 14L is a good tripod for hunting. It strikes a good balance between stability and weight.

My brother set up on a ridge, waiting for a bull, coming to the call.


This years bull killed at 396 yards, while standing behind a tripod.


Tripods and lead sleds don’t belong in the same conversation.

 

[BFR]

I absolutely love absolute non flexible hard line statements.

I own and use a lead sled, if that makes me a fudd so be it. I don’t really give a FUDD. Oh, I also use an old swivel rifle bench rest on occasion so I’m old school fudd at that.
I use it for load development, along with a chrono, it helps eliminate some minor human errors. Once a load shoot 5 rounds under .5” at 100 I then use a front bag out to 200 to get final zero.

1- No I’m not afraid of recoil. Until last year I shot a 30-06 with 2990fps loads, it has a little recoil to it. Last year I got sick, lost substantial weight, all of it in muscle mass so recoil was not my friend. Shot that same rifle for 61 years from age 12 thru 73.
2- No I don’t lack confidence in my shooting ability, I qualified expert in the military, and qualified with a max score in my LEO academy. I practice out to 700 yds and am consistent with my accuracy.
3- What I understand about my zero off the sled is that it will be less than 2.5 inches at 200 yds of the bag with MY rifles, I can’t and won’t extend that to others. In the field I use whatever rest I can find be it a rock, tree limb or bipod from 200 yds and out. With a solid rest, little wind I’ll reach out to 650 on a stationary animal.

Not trying to be confrontational, just wanted to point out there are other ways people use “gimmicks”. We all use gimmicks, rifle scope, binoculars, rangefinder, just to name a few. One persons useless gimmick is someone else’s tool, doesn’t mean either one is wrong, just that opinions differ.

 

[Lawnboi]

Yet many many many long range hunters are shooting off tripods.
For the life of me, I have no idea why you would push on your rifle.

They do, and successfully. I do as well. It’s about how you drive the rifle. I can surely put enough or not enough pressure to have a poi shift at 100 yards.

 

[Lawnboi]

I think you are fighting a straw man. Many have said exactly why they would zero using some sort of system that reduces human-induced variables. Once that is done, it's time to practice in conditions that are as close to the field as possible. Not everyone has enough experience to tell their issues from mechanical issues, nor the time and money to find out.

I assure you I am not. I could say the exact same about shooting on a bench. I shoot maybe 5% of the year on a bench, basically when that’s my only option. I’d bet most hunters zero their rifles from a bench, when that’s never going to be a shot they are taking in the field. Kind of strange. I think hunters as a whole need to re evaluate how they zero, how they spend those few rounds they may have, and how they use their time at the range. A sled, or a bench for that matter really tells me absolutely nothing about my rifle when it’s behind me. Knowing what my rifle will do without me behind it is of ZERO use to me, because it’s not how it’s going to be shot when it matters. I shoot with hunting partners who do have limited time and funds. I along with them went from a 300 yard shot being a maybe to a mostly, to a slam dunk in a year of not following the traditional hunter approach to shooting. Guys spend months working out, thousands of dollars on tags, guides and what not yet spend very little on becoming proficient on the one thing that could make a difference between taking something home and not.

Completely understand many don’t have the time, money or patience to become proficient. But a sled isn’t the answer.

And yes I have used one before. Im not pulling this out of my ass.

Although the OP comes off as a little harsh on the sled lovers here, I don’t think he is wrong. Most hunters would benefit from not shooting off a sled or bench period. It’s a good conversation to have.

 

[Mike Islander]

I assure you I am not. I could say the exact same about shooting on a bench. I shoot maybe 5% of the year on a bench, basically when that’s my only option. I’d bet most hunters zero their rifles from a bench, when that’s never going to be a shot they are taking in the field. Kind of strange. I think hunters as a whole need to re evaluate how they zero, how they spend those few rounds they may have, and how they use their time at the range. A sled, or a bench for that matter really tells me absolutely nothing about my rifle when it’s behind me. Knowing what my rifle will do without me behind it is of ZERO use to me, because it’s not how it’s going to be shot when it matters. I shoot with hunting partners who do have limited time and funds. I along with them went from a 300 yard shot being a maybe to a mostly, to a slam dunk in a year of not following the traditional hunter approach to shooting. Guys spend months working out, thousands of dollars on tags, guides and what not yet spend very little on becoming proficient on the one thing that could make a difference between taking something home and not.

Completely understand many don’t have the time, money or patience to become proficient. But a sled isn’t the answer.

And yes I have used one before. Im not pulling this out of my ass.

Although the OP comes off as a little harsh on the sled lovers here, I don’t think he is wrong. Most hunters would benefit from not shooting off a sled or bench period. It’s a good conversation to have.

Never used a sled. But I definitely use a bipod and rear bag to zero my rifle, especially after changing scopes or ammo choice. I have never used a bipod on game. I use the bipod and bag to remove as much of my input as possible with those two simple tools. Then I shoot standing, kneeling, prone, off my pack, etc.

If you and the OP are against Lead Sleds as a crutch to avoid recoil, that's a personal choice. But to poo poo using anything that isolates the gun from the shooter as a means of evaluating precision and accuracy of the actual mechanical system doesn't make sense to me. It's all personal choice, but I personally haven't seen a cogent argument in this thread that it isn't a very good thing to do.

 

[Lawnboi]

Never used a sled. But I definitely use a bipod and rear bag to zero my rifle, especially after changing scopes or ammo choice. I have never used a bipod on game. I use the bipod and bag to remove as much of my input as possible with those two simple tools. Then I shoot standing, kneeling, prone, off my pack, etc.

If you and the OP are against Lead Sleds as a crutch to avoid recoil, that's a personal choice. But to poo poo using anything that isolates the gun from the shooter as a means of evaluating precision and accuracy of the actual mechanical system doesn't make sense to me. It's all personal choice, but I personally haven't seen a cogent argument in this thread that it isn't a very good thing to do.

I’m not even against them for the recoil aspect.

Honest question, not trying to be a smart ass. What do you get out of shooting and zeroing your hunting rifle on something that has no field application? Would it not make more sense to zero in your most stable hunting position?

 

[Pickettpuncher]

Instead of focusing on zeroing I’ll leave this.

Why in the hell does someone care what their rifle will do when not being operated as it would in the field? False confidence, and perception that their rifle will do it in the moment when they need to is a bunch of bull. Hunters need to get off the flippin bench and shoot like you do in the field if you want to truly become proficient. Hurt feelings be damned.

Save your money, and the time lugging that junk around and spend it on ammo and shooting.

That said I do agree with the OP. I don’t think most are zeroing to the degree that they will see a difference, but many are. I see the lead sleds as a gimmick.

As to the tripod comment above, absolutely it can change your poi. That’s why we test, and confirm that when on the rifle in those positions dosnt create a shift. I can absolutely create a shift by pushing more or less into my rifle. Is it much? Usually not, probably acceptable by most hunters standards. But it’s enough to show itself.

I guess I’ll bite, but I have my reasons, right or wrong. I shoot off a bench, basically 99% of the time. It builds confidence, and it’s not false confidence either. I shoot off a front rest and rear bag. I also hunt out of a barn 90% of the time, with a bench. Why? Because I can! But seriously. Confidence. In my case, I have a daughter that I’ve been teaching to shoot for several years. She’s soon to be 14, and has been hunting with me half her life. By your methods, I throw a rifle in her hands, and tell her to hit the target, because that’s how it’s operated in the field, right? So they miss and miss because they haven’t developed shooting form. Instead, build their confidence. Show them that wherever the crosshairs are, that’s where they’ll hit. Once they can produce satisfactory groups, make it harder. I started taking away the rear bag. You can almost always find an improvised front rest, but both front and rear rests can be a challenge in the field. I have no idea how many deer I’ve killed thru the last 20 years, but I’d guess over half had some type of front rest. Can I shoot without a rest, yes I can. Am I as accurate as I would be on a bench, no I’m not. But I know wherever my crosshairs are that’s where the bullet is going. Just that simple. I’m all about building the confidence.

 

[Lawnboi]

I guess I’ll bite, but I have my reasons, right or wrong. I shoot off a bench, basically 99% of the time. It builds confidence, and it’s not false confidence either. I shoot off a front rest and rear bag. I also hunt out of a barn 90% of the time, with a bench. Why? Because I can! But seriously. Confidence. In my case, I have a daughter that I’ve been teaching to shoot for several years. She’s soon to be 14, and has been hunting with me half her life. By your methods, I throw a rifle in her hands, and tell her to hit the target, because that’s how it’s operated in the field, right? So they miss and miss because they haven’t developed shooting form. Instead, build their confidence. Show them that wherever the crosshairs are, that’s where they’ll hit. Once they can produce satisfactory groups, make it harder. I started taking away the rear bag. You can almost always find an improvised front rest, but both front and rear rests can be a challenge in the field. I have no idea how many deer I’ve killed thru the last 20 years, but I’d guess over half had some type of front rest. Can I shoot without a rest, yes I can. Am I as accurate as I would be on a bench, no I’m not. But I know wherever my crosshairs are that’s where the bullet is going. Just that simple. I’m all about building the confidence.

I can wrap my head around hunting from a bench if available. I would for sure practice that way if that is how I hunted.

As for confidence. For guys not hunting off the bench I see a lot of false confidence. I was the same way. I could slap an okay group on paper most of the time from a bench but couldn’t shoot for crap once I left it.

As far as younger and new shooters, we do have to make it easier to build some confidence, prone is that for me and what I would do if a bench shot is never going to be something the shooter will take. If at all possible, given the opportunity I will shoot prone off a bipod. That’s my most stable shooting position. I was brought up shooting with sleds and off a bench. When I was young anything beyond 100 was a gamble. I wasn’t completely confident or comfortable shooting from field positions because I never did it, just shot off a bench. Found out quickly that good enough on a bench was not reality. Could I go back knowing what I know now I would have done it all differently. That’s not even bringing the sled into the equation.

I think a lot of reasons kids get stuck at the bench is they have rifles that don’t fit or they cannot handle. That’s another topic all together. We can keep this focus on lead sleds.

 

[mtluckydan]

The majority of hunters shoot whitetail deer at under 100 yards so maybe that would explain the popularity of a shooting rest like a lead sled. Until recently many limited range states required using a shotgun with slugs...try shooting 20 3 inch slugs sometime off a bench for zeroing.

Most hunters shoot less than 20 rounds a year...probably far less now with the ammo situation. Again, just the typical hunter doing what they've always done and will continue to do.

Load development...shooting one or more rifles with multiple test loads during long range sessions. Repeatable holds to eliminate shooter errors including flinching to determine rifle accuracy.

Many reasons...again to the OP...what's the point of your post...just seems like putting people down for no reason and nothing positive to add to the shooting community...it's another Ford vs Chevy argument...personally I like Toyota....

Sent from my P00I using Tapatalk

 

[MaraviaDave]

Please watch these videos, by clicking the links below. They're well done and specifically address a number of the topics that are being discussed in this thread. Hopefully, after watching these videos we'll be able to focus our conversation towards recoil dynamics, zeroing rifles and field shooting applications.

Part 1: Your Shoulder and Recoil

Part 2: Getting Behind the Rifle

Part 3: How Recoil Relates to Accuracy

 

[MaraviaDave]

If you and the OP are against Lead Sleds as a crutch to avoid recoil, that's a personal choice.
.............but I personally haven't seen a cogent argument in this thread that it isn't a very good thing to do.

See post #53

 

[Mike Islander]

See post #53

I completely lost interest immediately following my last post.

 

[Hoodie]

The POI change is real. I noticed it going from sand bags to shooting off a pack.

I now zero prone, sling supported, off my hunting pack with a jacket for rear support. If I can get 1.5 MOA or so from there I'm totally satisfied. After that I shoot the same way out to my max distance (300 yards) to figure out my holdovers.

That's pretty much the end of prone shooting for me. After that it's mostly sitting or kneeling off a pack, usually with an elevated heart rate. Which is far and away the most likely way I'll shoot at an animal.

I very much recommend mimicking real world scenarios for both zeroing and establishing max effective range. I could see shooting off a bench for load development.

 

[KenLee]

lead sleds have broken stocks and scopes.

If they're going to break, I'd rather get it over with in the sled, cause I'm gonna break them before end of the first hunting season anyway and be done with them.

 

[Formidilosus]

If they're going to break, I'd rather get it over with in the sled, cause I'm gonna break them before end of the first hunting season anyway and be done with them.

That’s not how it works. Lead sleds as most use them will crack lots of stocks that wouldn’t be broken with decades of hard use.

 

[KenLee]

That’s not how it works. Lead sleds as most use them will crack lots of stocks that wouldn’t be broken with decades of hard use.

I'm probably the clumsiest hunter in the entire Southeast
It would amaze you the ways I break stuff...and myself.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm probably the clumsiest hunter in the entire Southeast
It would amaze you the ways I break stuff...and myself.

Sure. But I’ve seen cracked bedding and tangs on McMillan stocks from lead sleds. They are not a good thing for any use.