Jeff Martin
WKR
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 993
I used to be a Leica guy through and through....i think they are behind now...in alpha glass anyway. IMO
Zeiss HT 10x42 showed up
- Thread starter Aron Snyder
- Start date
I used to be a Leica guy through and through....i think they are behind now...in alpha glass anyway. IMO
I was able to spend some time with some Meopta Meostar HD's over the weekend. Optically I have no complaints. Very similar to the SLC HD pair, with slight differences in FOV and magnifications that make exact comparisons difficult. Both had a close focus range as advertised, just over 6' for Meostars and just under 6' for the SLC HD's, maybe more important if you are birding. Daytime performance during my 3D archery tournament was excellent. I could pick up the rings on every target whether in the sun or shade, which isn't always easy on Rhinehart targets. We have a lit archery range and I'm able to pick out the arrows at night shooting. I've tested them on the dimly lit streets and neighborhood and am very pleased with the low light performance. The Meostars are built like a tank, but you can tell when you hold them. They are comfortable in my hands and I really liked the feel of the heavy rubber armoring.
Cons:
1. They are heavy, every bit of the 32ozs. They do balance well, but I'm trying to decide how I feel about the weight.
2. The eye relief adjustment - It worked for me at full extension. I think it would be challenging to have them stay a mid-point setting.
3. The case - just feels cheap to me for a $1000 set of binoculars
Other items of note:
- The objective lens are not inset as deep in the body as other binoculars. I'm not sure if they would protect as well as other designs in the accidental drop.
- The center screw is set closer to the objectives which made mounting the Vortex tripod adapter much easier than a model where the screw mounts more towards the center of the body
- Good field of view, but would like to compare it to the Vortex Razor HD. When compared to the SLC HD's it doesn't hold up, but it wasn't bad by any means.
- I prefer the diopter adjustment of the SLC HD, but Meostar worked well so far
- I preferred the focus adjustment of the Meostar over the SLC HD, it had the right amount of tension and just worked very smoothly. My SLC HD's are inconsistent throughout the rotation with stiff and loose spots.
I would still like to try the Vortex Razor HD, I'm would like to see if the field of view and lighter weight would sway my view.
One pet peeve I have with all binocular companies is why can't they develop a better objective cover? The common style today just seems to be poor. I tried some Butler Creek Scope Caps and they broke rather quickly too. It did seem like a good concept.
Cons:
1. They are heavy, every bit of the 32ozs. They do balance well, but I'm trying to decide how I feel about the weight.
2. The eye relief adjustment - It worked for me at full extension. I think it would be challenging to have them stay a mid-point setting.
3. The case - just feels cheap to me for a $1000 set of binoculars
Other items of note:
- The objective lens are not inset as deep in the body as other binoculars. I'm not sure if they would protect as well as other designs in the accidental drop.
- The center screw is set closer to the objectives which made mounting the Vortex tripod adapter much easier than a model where the screw mounts more towards the center of the body
- Good field of view, but would like to compare it to the Vortex Razor HD. When compared to the SLC HD's it doesn't hold up, but it wasn't bad by any means.
- I prefer the diopter adjustment of the SLC HD, but Meostar worked well so far
- I preferred the focus adjustment of the Meostar over the SLC HD, it had the right amount of tension and just worked very smoothly. My SLC HD's are inconsistent throughout the rotation with stiff and loose spots.
I would still like to try the Vortex Razor HD, I'm would like to see if the field of view and lighter weight would sway my view.
One pet peeve I have with all binocular companies is why can't they develop a better objective cover? The common style today just seems to be poor. I tried some Butler Creek Scope Caps and they broke rather quickly too. It did seem like a good concept.
AGPank: nice comparison. Thanks
32oz binoculars are out for me. I have one nice bino in that wt class and it stays in the truck or on the back porch watching local deer..
There are just too many light wt options out there to justify carrying that weight all day even on a nice harness.
32oz binoculars are out for me. I have one nice bino in that wt class and it stays in the truck or on the back porch watching local deer..
There are just too many light wt options out there to justify carrying that weight all day even on a nice harness.
AGPank,
Thanks for the review. I am with you on the objective covers. That goes for spotters, too.
The Nikon EDG covers seem to be the best option so far.
On the field of view, are your SLC HD's the 10x? Specs list the FOV as the same 330' /1000yards for both the 10x Meostar HD and 10x SLC HD.
The weight savings of the Vortex Razor HDs is substantial, as is the whopping 362'/1000 yards. That is amazing in a 10x.
Still, the Meopta is awesome.
Thanks for the review. I am with you on the objective covers. That goes for spotters, too.
The Nikon EDG covers seem to be the best option so far.
On the field of view, are your SLC HD's the 10x? Specs list the FOV as the same 330' /1000yards for both the 10x Meostar HD and 10x SLC HD.
The weight savings of the Vortex Razor HDs is substantial, as is the whopping 362'/1000 yards. That is amazing in a 10x.
Still, the Meopta is awesome.
I am wondering how the gold rings compared to the others in there price range you tested. I have a pair and am happy with them but have considered upgrading to better glass.just not sure how much of a difference there is as the gold rings were the first pair of good glass I have owned.
I tracked down a pair of 10x42 Razor HD's. I spent some time this evening 6-7pm looking outside in a light rain. I was able to review these alongside the Meopta Meostar HD 10x42 and Swarovski SLC HD 8x42. It's a little tough comparing a 8x to 10x model. The 8x has a noticeably better FOV than either model. It also holds much steadier free hand. This should be expected so its not really fair to give the SLC HD the win here, because I'm comparing very different sets.
Optical Performance
All 3 perform outstanding. My eyes don't pick a clear winner with any color or clarity of image. It did appear that the SLC HD and Razors had the better edge clarity when compared to the Meostar HD. I was looking to the west under cloudy and rainy conditions. I came across a would electric pole with the Razors and at the very edge of the image I picked up some CA. I tried with the SLC HD the CA was less noticeable, but still there. I couldn't recreate this with the Meostar. My eyes are very sensitive and this is one of the few times that I've really noticed and been able to recreate the CA around on object.
There are some buses and large trucks parked in a lot that I ranged at 292 yards away. One bus had some lettering above the windshield, I estimated this to be 4-6" tall lettering. I set the binoculars on my tripod and was able to read the lettering with both 10x models, but not the 8x. I contribute this mainly to the magnification. I don't think either 10x model will resolve something the other won't.
Close focusing: Razors - 5ft, SLC HD - 6ft, Meostar - 6.5ft
I don't have great conditions in Fort Lauderdale to test twilight performance due to the amount of street light always present. There hasn't been anything so far that I could see with the 8x that I haven't been able to see with either 10x pair.
Field of View: I really like the larger FOV of the SLC HD. I know some of this is a result of the construction of the 8x, but it is significantly better than either of these 10x models. On paper the Razor is supposed to have a much wider FOV than the Meopta. In reality I'm just not seeing a large difference. I don't have a real scientific approach, but the edge does go to the Razor, but in my limited use it is a slight advantage. Now I really haven't ranged out to 1000 yards, but not all of my viewing is at that distance either.
Next Post - Construction, Ergonomics, accessories
Optical Performance
All 3 perform outstanding. My eyes don't pick a clear winner with any color or clarity of image. It did appear that the SLC HD and Razors had the better edge clarity when compared to the Meostar HD. I was looking to the west under cloudy and rainy conditions. I came across a would electric pole with the Razors and at the very edge of the image I picked up some CA. I tried with the SLC HD the CA was less noticeable, but still there. I couldn't recreate this with the Meostar. My eyes are very sensitive and this is one of the few times that I've really noticed and been able to recreate the CA around on object.
There are some buses and large trucks parked in a lot that I ranged at 292 yards away. One bus had some lettering above the windshield, I estimated this to be 4-6" tall lettering. I set the binoculars on my tripod and was able to read the lettering with both 10x models, but not the 8x. I contribute this mainly to the magnification. I don't think either 10x model will resolve something the other won't.
Close focusing: Razors - 5ft, SLC HD - 6ft, Meostar - 6.5ft
I don't have great conditions in Fort Lauderdale to test twilight performance due to the amount of street light always present. There hasn't been anything so far that I could see with the 8x that I haven't been able to see with either 10x pair.
Field of View: I really like the larger FOV of the SLC HD. I know some of this is a result of the construction of the 8x, but it is significantly better than either of these 10x models. On paper the Razor is supposed to have a much wider FOV than the Meopta. In reality I'm just not seeing a large difference. I don't have a real scientific approach, but the edge does go to the Razor, but in my limited use it is a slight advantage. Now I really haven't ranged out to 1000 yards, but not all of my viewing is at that distance either.
Next Post - Construction, Ergonomics, accessories
Construction, Ergonomics, Accessories
I want to start off with the Razor as I had read some reviews that had me concerning the build quality. These feel like a very solid high dollar pair of optics and quickly put my concerns to rest. The construction seems stout and has a lot of similarities to the Razor HD spotter (some metal and light armor feel). The eye cups are thin, but it didn't bother me at all. The intermediate adjustments appear that they will hold just fine, but maybe not as secure as the all-out adjustment. The diopter adjustment is on the right eye-piece. It slides up and easily twists for adjustment then locks into place. I worked very well (and I recommend doing this on a tripod for best performance). The center focus is extremely smooth and performed the best of the 3 I reviewed. The Razor feels like the smallest of the 3 pairs reviewed (followed by the SLC HD then the Meostar). I took a couple pictures and they are in another thread. The rain guard and objective covers are similar to the Viper series. I've had a pair of the objective covers tear on an older pair of Vipers due to the thin rubber construction, but Vortex did replace them no questions asked. The neck strap is functional, but adjustment is slow. The nylon / cordura case is a good quality
Comparisons:
Overall ergonomics / feel: I give the edge to the SLC HD. They just seem like the right size, amount of armor, and weight. The Meostar's are growing on me, at first I wasn't sure about the weight, but they do feel very good in my hands. Both pair of these the thumb indents fit my hands just right. The Razors may fit a smaller pair of hands better as they are the more compact of the 3. They would have a heck of a 8x32 compact model if they made it! The Meostar's have the heaviest layer of rubber armor, followed by the SLC HD, then the Razor. I will say that the pictures of the Razors do not do them justice.
Accessories: The case, rain guard, neck strap, and objective covers are all higher quality on the SLC HD. I'm not crazy about the attachment for the neck strap to the binocular body, I've seen many better designs. The Meostar neckstrap has the most padding and has the longest adjustment which is good if you want to use it around one shoulder and down around your hip. The Meostar case, nostalgic, as someon called it, should have been a distant memory and never made it to the shelf.
If I had to pick an all out favorite, I would give a slight edge to the SLC HD.
Now let's look at retail pricing (yes you can shop around and find demos/deals etc, but for comparison)(prices from Eagle Optics):
SLC HD 10x42 (for pricing comparison) $2,239
Vortex Razor HD 10x42 $1,200
Meopta Meostar HD 10x42 $1,000
Warranty:
Vortex - No fault lifetime transferable - hands down industry best
Meopta - Lifetime transferable - appears very good, I haven't had or heard of customer service experience from them
Swarovski - Lifetime (I've ready they will transfer via their website). I read many outstanding reviews of Swarovski treating their customers right.
When I look at it this way I may be listing my SLC HDs and getting a pair of Razor and Meostars so I don't have to choose! (They are in mint condition by the way
I want to start off with the Razor as I had read some reviews that had me concerning the build quality. These feel like a very solid high dollar pair of optics and quickly put my concerns to rest. The construction seems stout and has a lot of similarities to the Razor HD spotter (some metal and light armor feel). The eye cups are thin, but it didn't bother me at all. The intermediate adjustments appear that they will hold just fine, but maybe not as secure as the all-out adjustment. The diopter adjustment is on the right eye-piece. It slides up and easily twists for adjustment then locks into place. I worked very well (and I recommend doing this on a tripod for best performance). The center focus is extremely smooth and performed the best of the 3 I reviewed. The Razor feels like the smallest of the 3 pairs reviewed (followed by the SLC HD then the Meostar). I took a couple pictures and they are in another thread. The rain guard and objective covers are similar to the Viper series. I've had a pair of the objective covers tear on an older pair of Vipers due to the thin rubber construction, but Vortex did replace them no questions asked. The neck strap is functional, but adjustment is slow. The nylon / cordura case is a good quality
Comparisons:
Overall ergonomics / feel: I give the edge to the SLC HD. They just seem like the right size, amount of armor, and weight. The Meostar's are growing on me, at first I wasn't sure about the weight, but they do feel very good in my hands. Both pair of these the thumb indents fit my hands just right. The Razors may fit a smaller pair of hands better as they are the more compact of the 3. They would have a heck of a 8x32 compact model if they made it! The Meostar's have the heaviest layer of rubber armor, followed by the SLC HD, then the Razor. I will say that the pictures of the Razors do not do them justice.
Accessories: The case, rain guard, neck strap, and objective covers are all higher quality on the SLC HD. I'm not crazy about the attachment for the neck strap to the binocular body, I've seen many better designs. The Meostar neckstrap has the most padding and has the longest adjustment which is good if you want to use it around one shoulder and down around your hip. The Meostar case, nostalgic, as someon called it, should have been a distant memory and never made it to the shelf.
If I had to pick an all out favorite, I would give a slight edge to the SLC HD.
Now let's look at retail pricing (yes you can shop around and find demos/deals etc, but for comparison)(prices from Eagle Optics):
SLC HD 10x42 (for pricing comparison) $2,239
Vortex Razor HD 10x42 $1,200
Meopta Meostar HD 10x42 $1,000
Warranty:
Vortex - No fault lifetime transferable - hands down industry best
Meopta - Lifetime transferable - appears very good, I haven't had or heard of customer service experience from them
Swarovski - Lifetime (I've ready they will transfer via their website). I read many outstanding reviews of Swarovski treating their customers right.
When I look at it this way I may be listing my SLC HDs and getting a pair of Razor and Meostars so I don't have to choose! (They are in mint condition by the way
Racethesunset
WKR
AG, which one of the three has the biggest sweet spot in your opinion? Which one has the least amount of blur from the edges?
Stinky Coyote
WKR
wow, its been a few years since i did a whack of research and bought my leica ultravid hd's maybe i should put them against something new?, i too was never a swaro el fan and much prefered slc's and have spent time with 2 pair of slc's and limited amount of time with some 10x42 el's but that was an instant not impressed, but when i did my research usually watching those euro bird watching reviews etc. etc. the zeiss flagship seemed to have the consensus of ultimate image with smaller sweet spot, the leica ultravid hd's next in line on the image quality with much bigger sweet spot of optical awesomeness and then the swaro's seemed to always rank 3rd behind the zeiss/leica and then it goes further of course, as individuals have certain 'eyes'....ie; i definitely have 'leica' eyes, they are the ultimate bino i've looked through and they followed what research would tell me, i've played with some zeiss flagships too and do also prefer those to swaro's, there is a north american hunter thing about swaro is the bomb...its like part of the hunting fabric here...thankfully i got over that and looked at things differently, as said, very easily could live with slc's but do not get along with el's for some reason or several reasons, i too am surprised by the lack of leica ultravid hd's running around here...i can't see that much changing in 5 years...anyone doing some shopping, have a boo at some ultravids against the zeiss/swaro's...you may also have 'leica eyes'? thats the biggest point, try as many as you can when spending that kind of dough on alpha glass! not checking the leica ultravid hd's would be a mistake at the upper level imo, not saying they are the bomb for you as it comes down to individual but looking at how similar my views on certain bins in this thread echo others, makes me go hmmmm......i think people really need to get to the nearest leica store, they don't seem to run as high in the spotter world but in the bino world imo...its zeiss and leica running the show, its like that in europe with the all those crazy birdwatchers...i'm with them, glad i took the time to learn whats going on with, those birders are seriously fussy about their optics and watch far smaller and more colorful critters than we hunters do, very fussy on their fov's etc. to find said little colorful birds etc....turns out my research has served me well, there is no swaro i've looked through that can make me as happy as my ultravid hd's do, i know i know, i should be in sales, seriously though, i get obsessive about research when its time to see what must be looked at before buying, granted thats what the consensus was i came to when i bought my ultravid hd's about 5 years ago, i suppose swarovision came along since then but eh, not an el fan, otherwise all flagships should be considered, keeping an OPEN mind, i'm definitely not a swaro guy but only because i've looked through them and other stuff, not even a fan of their spotters, i just don't have swaro eyes, except slc's so far
Stinky Coyote
WKR
Thanks for the comparo Aron, i finally do have info i'll be keeping in my data banks about a new bino to check out. I know 5 yrs ago when i agonized over a new set of bins it was very close between the fl's and the ultravid hd's but it was the larger sweet spot of optical awesomeness AND the ergo's/functions/adjustments etc. of the ultravids that won me over, it sounds like we have similar taste in glass, i too found the fl's with the most accurate colors of the scene, sooooo neutral, the leica a bit more 'vivid' to the image that i also liked, not sure how to describe that better but its not like it was a color hue thing...it just seemed to 'pop' and be more vibrant out of the ultravid hd vs the super neutral and almost boringly accurate flat color from the zeiss. But saying that the ergo's/adjustments etc. have improved with the new HT's might just be kind of a big deal?!
...i personally will check them out against my ultravid hd's as it really was a close contest for me at the time the fl was the flagship, but now that zeiss has come out with a new one up it will be worth checking out again as it sounds like it could be 'thee' bin!edit, crap, no 32mm HT's yet...well i am still gold with my ultravid hd's then, at least until they bring out some HT's in 32mm...then i'll get them together and see what time it is
Racethesunset
WKR
Out of curiosity, what about EL specifically didn't you like? Did you compare pre-Swarovision (e.g. 2000 to 2009) or post? Was it ergonomics? I agree that pre-Swarovision, the EL was inferior by a small margin to other offerings from the big 3, and even from the sub-$1000 Nikon's EDG and SE options.
Stinky Coyote
WKR
yup, pre swarovision, the image is plenty good enough, very swaro to me which isn't a bad thing but its a swaro thing and i've become not a fan, also wasn't a fan of the ergo/adjustments/feel of the bin either, i didn't take notes so this is going from memory, i would say maybe the image was the best part and i hated the rest of the bino, it was an easy 3rd to the leica/zeiss overall for me, felt like it was maybe 500 buckeroos(or more) overpriced imo
Interesting take, Stinky.
I really liked the old ELs, especially their IMO awesome build quality and ergonomics.
I do think the SLC neu of the same generation was slightly better optically, particularly on lateral CA.
Both Swaros seemed to have a wider sweet spot than either the Zeiss FL or Ultravid, in the ones I saw.
The new Swarovision has the best sweet spot there is: the whole FOV.
Swarovski optics, in general, have a great sweet spot reputation, from what I gather. I have also found them more neutral in color than the FLs or UV.
Just my take.
I really liked the old ELs, especially their IMO awesome build quality and ergonomics.
I do think the SLC neu of the same generation was slightly better optically, particularly on lateral CA.
Both Swaros seemed to have a wider sweet spot than either the Zeiss FL or Ultravid, in the ones I saw.
The new Swarovision has the best sweet spot there is: the whole FOV.
Swarovski optics, in general, have a great sweet spot reputation, from what I gather. I have also found them more neutral in color than the FLs or UV.
Just my take.
Racethesunset,
My opinion on the sweetspot may be swayed by the larger FOV in the 8x SLC HD. All 3 have a great sweet spot.
I think for clarity on the edge the Vortex has a slight edge under some conditions. I say some conditions as there have been some conditions at the very edge where I picked up some CA. Honestly for me it's not even comfortable to focus on the edge condition.
I am starting to notice that when I've tried to view lettering at different distance to see if a pair has a resolution advantage over another there are many trade offs. The 8x SLC is great for most occasions, but sometimes the 10x can pick up more due to the extra magnification. I'm starting to appreciate the weight of the Meostar because it holds steadier for me than the Razors offhand.
I"m learning there isn't probably a perfect solution. I need to try them over at the archery range to see what works better for scoring arrows.
My opinion on the sweetspot may be swayed by the larger FOV in the 8x SLC HD. All 3 have a great sweet spot.
I think for clarity on the edge the Vortex has a slight edge under some conditions. I say some conditions as there have been some conditions at the very edge where I picked up some CA. Honestly for me it's not even comfortable to focus on the edge condition.
I am starting to notice that when I've tried to view lettering at different distance to see if a pair has a resolution advantage over another there are many trade offs. The 8x SLC is great for most occasions, but sometimes the 10x can pick up more due to the extra magnification. I'm starting to appreciate the weight of the Meostar because it holds steadier for me than the Razors offhand.
I"m learning there isn't probably a perfect solution. I need to try them over at the archery range to see what works better for scoring arrows.
Stinky Coyote
WKR
Bb, memory is fading, that's all I got, my buddies el's also crapped the diopter adjustment and had to go in for warranty, possibly twice, will take the build quality of an slc over the el's, I likely will be adding the 15x slc's to stable in near future but if there was only 15x ultravid hd judging by how well he 12x ultravid hd compares to the big eyes a 15x ultravid hd would handily rule that class if leica gets on it.
Sorry for thread derail. I could probably find all the animals I find with a bino a fraction of the price of alphas, just wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable, just for perspective of the slivers of differences we tend to carry on about. Would love to have seen this comparo with an ultravid hd in the mix, nice to see impressions from a group at same time. Hard to get all the top stuff together at same time. That Zeiss ht sounds like a really sweet bin! Bring on the 32's...or even better...a 15x!
Sorry for thread derail. I could probably find all the animals I find with a bino a fraction of the price of alphas, just wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable, just for perspective of the slivers of differences we tend to carry on about. Would love to have seen this comparo with an ultravid hd in the mix, nice to see impressions from a group at same time. Hard to get all the top stuff together at same time. That Zeiss ht sounds like a really sweet bin! Bring on the 32's...or even better...a 15x!
Racethesunset
WKR
AG,
I agree with you on the HD clarity at the edges.
The perfect optical instrument doesn't exist - that's what makes the comparisons fun I think.
Stinky,
I catch your drift... The differences for many of the highest end binoculars are noticeable when we are looking for them. I enjoy those differences, even in terms of comparisons. I wish Cabelas or Sportsmans would stock more for testing... Too poor to buy em all at once!
I agree with you on the HD clarity at the edges.
The perfect optical instrument doesn't exist - that's what makes the comparisons fun I think.
Stinky,
I catch your drift... The differences for many of the highest end binoculars are noticeable when we are looking for them. I enjoy those differences, even in terms of comparisons. I wish Cabelas or Sportsmans would stock more for testing... Too poor to buy em all at once!
- Thread Starter
- #59
OP
Bb, memory is fading, that's all I got, my buddies el's also crapped the diopter adjustment and had to go in for warranty, possibly twice, will take the build quality of an slc over the el's, I likely will be adding the 15x slc's to stable in near future but if there was only 15x ultravid hd judging by how well he 12x ultravid hd compares to the big eyes a 15x ultravid hd would handily rule that class if leica gets on it.
Sorry for thread derail. I could probably find all the animals I find with a bino a fraction of the price of alphas, just wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable, just for perspective of the slivers of differences we tend to carry on about. Would love to have seen this comparo with an ultravid hd in the mix, nice to see impressions from a group at same time. Hard to get all the top stuff together at same time. That Zeiss ht sounds like a really sweet bin! Bring on the 32's...or even better...a 15x!
I'm hoping for a 15 as well!
Racethesunset
WKR
They would sell like hot cakes, and be uber expensive. Perhaps $3500, maybe $4000 for HD 15's, would be my guess. The current lot of 15's are non-HD (if memory serves), and have noticeable CA and edge distortion because of it. I bet it's a tough magnification to tame, that's why we haven't seen them yet.
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