Your Groups Are Too Small

[Macintosh]

Special only in that, regardless of equipment, I've never seen a 30-round .88moa group before, ever, in over 50 years on this planet and thousands upon thousands of rounds downrange (not an fclass or Br guy). It's why I keep trying to extrapolate to a larger group than yours--I think you are selling yourself short in the over-average dept, and just trying to put your results in context with mine and the folks I shoot with, a few of whom have a LOT of formal training and have shot a lot for a long time, and have invested quite a lot into some (what I thought were) very accurate rifles...I think they are above average and they aren't getting the consistent accuracy and precision you are either. It's hard to recognize between the various "camps" on this topic, what is reliant on factors that don't apply to me, and what does apply to me--ultimately, I just want to wrap my head around the methods I can personally use reliably, with my ability and my equipment, to maximize my own shooting.

 

[Flyjunky]

I'd have to watch/listen to the Hornady video again but it seems that @TK-421's data shows better and more consistent accuracy (distance from POA) than the data provided by Hornady. His results are impressive. It'd take me some time to conclusively wrap my head around what the take aways should be in comparison to what Hornady is saying. It does seem that he and his equipment are just better than most and less likely to vary both in precision and accuracy.

That’s what I was saying a number of posts ago. How can they have worse groups, especially the large spread, when they are using a rail gun?

 

[wind gypsy]

From International Benchrest Shooters
View attachment 500812

A post from Frank Green on Snipershide
View attachment 500813

My 10-shot groups look like trash compared to these. My 3-shot groups aren't even in this ballpark. It's all relative guys.

I think "it's all relative" aligns with what we're saying. World benchrest records hardly relate to average groups with factory ammo in hunting rifles.

That’s what I was saying a number of posts ago. How can they have worse groups, especially the large spread, when they are using a rail gun?

I had the impression on the podcast that a lot of this data was coming from shoulder fired weapons and that they had tried out both ways but maybe i misinterpreted. Also didn't they talk more about scaling factors than actual precision of most of the groups they had?

 

[Macintosh]

Face it @tk421 , you're a 1.7%er!

 

[Flyjunky]

I had the impression on the podcast that a lot of this data was coming from shoulder fired weapons and that they had tried out both ways but maybe i misinterpreted. Also didn't they talk more about scaling factors than actual precision of most of the groups they had?

Maybe, but I thought they were talking about their test apparatus as an "accuracy fixture" with a 1.25" barrel, etc as what was used for these tests. Otherwise it would seem weird to incorporate both shoulder fired and fixture fired results together when I didn't hear them make a distinction between the two.

If they are saying that no matter what was used this is our result then I can understand not differentiating but that makes me question even more their "accuracy fixture". Maybe they should be asking TK421 for his gun instead

 

[Lawnboi]

Maybe it’s because they are shooting Hornady bullets?

 

[wind gypsy]

Maybe it’s because they are shooting Hornady bullets?

[Awaits @TK-421 data dump from hornady factory ammo eliminating that variable]

 

[HighUintas]

I believe they said their all their data is from an accuracy fixture that is basically a rail gun and their barrels are 1.25" quality single point cut barrels. They also said they've done a lot of these tests expanding the group round counts to 100 and I think in a couple cases several hundred or five hundred.

Given what they stayed their equipment is and testing procedures are.... Yes it baffles me that their group sizes are as large as they are in comparison to TK-421's. I would think they would be showing some 0.50 or 0.60 groups. I can't remember exactly, but I think the engineer said he's not seen a true 0.50 gun. Or it could have been 0.25 gun. Can't remember for sure. I guess it's possible their chambers are not optimized for the ammo their testing and they might be using something more "average" to get an accurate representation of what the ammo will do in MOST consumer rifles.

 

[dashender7]

I haven't had a chance to listen yet or read every single post in this thread, but do they talk about first shot cold bore repeatability much? Go out and each range day carefully log the first shot and maybe 1 or 2 after it on top of the same zero. Don't care about shot 19 or even shot 9 in a warm string. Unless you're competing in PRS?

 

[Lawnboi]

The 8/25/22 group linked below uses factory Hornady 108 ELDMs. To be fair, that's the worst aggregate of all four that I posted, so maybe Lawnboi is onto something. I have a couple cases of Berger loaded 105 hybrids that I could check out in that rifle though

Your Groups Are Too Small

by BR guys, I don't think any of them have tested those changes with a larger sample size and they don't seem to be willing to. The few guys over there that are almost always at the top of the leader board and winning often are also the guys that are shooting and testing constantly. That’s...

rokslide.com

Since we are talking benchrest and competitive shooting in general. I wonder how many are even using the eldm, or Hornady bullets in general besides the ATip. I know most even at the local level have given up on anything but the ATip.

The previous statement is mainly sarcastic, but I do prefer Berger. And since we are talking bench rest and f class I wonder how many of those competitors are even using Hornady bullets.

 

[parshal]

I only shoot Berger and Barnes Matchburner. Shot the 250 a-tips at the NF ELR and ran them over the AB radar. The SD of the ES was horrible. Bryan said he's been seeing that a lot with the a-tips. Most of my buddies shoot a-tips in PRS and love them.

 

[greaseywater]

I haven't had a chance to listen yet or read every single post in this thread, but do they talk about first shot cold bore repeatability much? Go out and each range day carefully log the first shot and maybe 1 or 2 after it on top of the same zero. Don't care about shot 19 or even shot 9 in a warm string. Unless you're competing in PRS?

Not 1 shot cold bore specifically. But they do talk about builiding up a large group for a hunting rifle by doing 3 shots at a time over several days. A guy could do the same thing with 1 shot at a time.

 

[fwafwow]

Edit to add: my experience is that quality gear typically outperforms budget gear, and it's why I typically recommend people just buy quality stuff. Maybe my barrels/scopes are better than what Hornady used?

I smell the beginnings of a new RS Special and a “Show me your TK-421 Super Groop semi custom” thread.

 

[Lawnboi]

I smell the beginnings of a new RS Special and a “Show me your TK-421 Super Groop semi custom” thread.

Most hunters don’t practice or know the capability of their rifle. Look at the practice thread. @TK-421 is still the only one to post a Kraft drill with a light magnum.

 

[gbflyer]

From International Benchrest Shooters
View attachment 500812

A post from Frank Green on Snipershide
View attachment 500813

My 10-shot groups look like trash compared to these. My 3-shot groups aren't even in this ballpark. It's all relative guys.

10 shots is where they go with a rail gun right? Used to be that anyway. .104 is something.

 

[JarrettMW]

I watched that podcast both episodes about 2 weeks ago.
I think what you described in the comments is what I am hoping to do.

I’ve got a new 300PRC I am looking for hunting. I have no load data except what Berger and Hornady provide.

My thought was pick 3-4 powders, and shoot 1 grain increments from min to max.
10-12 bullets total.

Shoot them into a single group for each powder. Per Hornady guys there saying that they’re shouldn’t be much change in that group size from your powder range right?

Then take maybe 4-5 POI that are closer together from that range and shoot say 20-30 bullets at that powder drop in that 4-5 POI.

Then see how that compares to all powders. If I don’t see what I like, switch bullets?

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[ARK_Ginger]

Thought this one was a worthwhile listen in addition to the original.

 

[parshal]

Nice one especially when it got to the half minute gun discussion around 14 minutes.

At 1 hour 12 minutes he addresses how he tests hunting rifles. Worth a listen.

 

[wind gypsy]

Thought this one was a worthwhile listen in addition to the original.

Only listened to a little so far but Cortina makes it seem like he had Jayden on just to defend himself.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Only listened to a little so far but Cortina makes it seem like he had Jayden on just to defend himself.

The further they go the more common ground they find. I was a little irritated with the initial format myself, but it turned out positive and informative, in my opinion.