Your Groups Are Too Small

[huntnful]

The further they go the more common ground they find. I was a little irritated with the initial format myself, but it turned out positive and informative, in my opinion.

Totally agree. Ended up being one of favorite podcasts on shooting actually.

 

[Macintosh]

@TK-421 for those of us who arent the sharpest knives in the drawer (), what are your takeaways from that?? ^^

 

[Carl Ross]

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Note, graph colors are inconsistent.

(36) 5-shot groups

Average 5-shot group size is 0.67 MOA* (bipod & rear bag). Half of the ammo options averaged 1/2 MOA for their respective (4) 5-shot groups.

20-shot SDs range from 10.7 to 24.9*. Half the ammo options had sub 15 fps SDs.

*Nosler “Match Grade” RDF is hot trash.

Good data collection.

Did you shoot one entire box, followed by the next, and so on? Curious, as the first 2-5 shots of some of your velocity graph lines seem noisier than the next 15. Wondering if the bore condition could still be settling in to a new powder/jacket combination.

 

[HighUintas]

Good data collection.

Did you shoot one entire box, followed by the next, and so on? Curious, as the first 2-5 shots of some of your velocity graph lines seem noisier than the next 15. Wondering if the bore condition could still be settling in to a new powder/jacket combination.

If it is a rolling average, the "noise" will be more apparent through the first few shots regardless of ammo.

 

[ST52v]

@Ryan Avery

I need 8# of Varget, 300 LR Match Primers, 200 pieces of Lapua brass, and 300 208gr LRHT Berger bullets for a 308 Winchester.

PM me for shipping address
PM @Formidilosus for payment.

 

[Carl Ross]

Yes, one box at a time. I don’t think the noise has anything to do with the bore settling on the bullet/powder combo. I shot about 1,000 rounds of the same lot of the same factory ammo through that barrel, and I’ve seen the same “noise” in that prior data. It’s just a function of the running avg converging to the “true” average.

The noisier avg MV graphs directly correspond to the noisier SD graphs, which also had the greatest SDs overall. That connection isn’t surprising to me.

I'm an idiot and didn't read closely enough. Didn't realize it was graphing the running average, I incorrectly assumed it was plotting individual shot velocities. It all adds up now.

 

[zachattack57]

Summary:
1. 10 shot group (minimum) for zero
2. Changing bullet and powder can have significant impact upon accuracy
3. Changing primer and jump have minimal impact upon accuracy
3.5. If changing powder/bullet combo doesn’t get your desired results, change barrel
4. 20 and 30 shot group size are relevant
5. Over 30 shot group size not necessary

Was @Formidilosus one of those podcasters?

Edit: added 3.5

Appreciate the quick summary

 

[Clark33]

View attachment 511362

View attachment 511363
View attachment 511364
Note, graph colors are inconsistent.

(36) 5-shot groups

Average 5-shot group size is 0.67 MOA* (bipod & rear bag). Half of the ammo options averaged 1/2 MOA for their respective (4) 5-shot groups.

20-shot SDs range from 10.7 to 24.9*. Half the ammo options had sub 15 fps SDs.

*Nosler “Match Grade” RDF is hot trash.

Forgive me if I missed it, but which ammo is which color on your graphs?

 

[wind gypsy]

@TK-421 what program do you use to record and measure groups?

Also, could you share the details on the 6 creed barrel used in this case?

 

[Clark33]

Quick checks in the field are Ballistic-X. Aggregations are using a computer drafting program that I can achieve a higher level of resolution.

Barrel is a proof research SS prefit. 1:7.5 twist.


I’ll start a new thread and break everything down at some point. Cliff notes:

Nosler premium is complete garbage. That’s been my experience with several offerings in several cartridges in multiple barrels.

Black Hills is meh. Based on price, I won’t buy much (if any), unless I’m doing something like that comparison again.

The rest has its place, and the obvious match ammo will generally shoot about 1/2 MOA 5-shot groups, about 7/8 MOA 20-shot groups (or better), and have sub 15 fps SDs over 20-shots. The “non-match” is a cost/benefit choice over pure performance.

Copy that, I’ve only tried Hornady match and FGMM 105’s in mine. Both shot great and never tried anything else. Good to know about the nosler though. Thanks

 

[simplepeddler]

I enjoyed that Podcast for sure!

 

[wind gypsy]

Barrel is a proof research SS prefit. 1:7.5 twist.

Assuming this is the proof brand Competition contour? Seems like those things do great for the price of sourcing a blank and sending to a smith.

I’ll start a new thread and break everything down at some point. Cliff notes:

Nosler premium is complete garbage. That’s been my experience with several offerings in several cartridges in multiple barrels.

Black Hills is meh. Based on price, I won’t buy much (if any), unless I’m doing something like that comparison again.

The rest has its place, and the obvious match ammo will generally shoot about 1/2 MOA 5-shot groups, about 7/8 MOA 20-shot groups (or better), and have sub 15 fps SDs over 20-shots. The “non-match” is a cost/benefit choice over pure performance.

Reminded me of this - where Nosler was terrible. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2021...o-test-summary-hit-probability-at-long-range/
In current times ive noticed the nosler factory ammo is some of the most outrageously priced too.. I've had good luck with nosler brand 300wsm factory ammo but not tried anything else.

I'm working on getting a 18" 6 creed for practice and whitetail hunting put together. The norma 107 golden target ammo is priced really low right now and looks like a good candidate for range ammo. Have you tried it? I did see something about it having thick necks on the brass that had tight clearance in some chambers.

 

[Harvey_NW]

View attachment 524426

After a sample size of 50 it's just filling in the voids, so defending comments about them "shooting up all the bullets" in a 500 shot group, is pretty ironic


Still pretty awesome.

 

[Sandstrom]

From Sierra Bullet's IG
500 shot group at 300 meters (0.77 MOA)
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Any info on what they shot that group with? Was it a rail gun, or an actual shooter/rifle?
Thanks!

Ryan

 

[mstei4]

Any info on what they shot that group with? Was it a rail gun, or an actual shooter/rifle?
Thanks!

Ryan

Based off of Sierra’s caption I think it was an actual shooter. They stated it took all day and their shooter took breaks, at least that’s what I’m drawing my conclusions based off of

 

[NevadaMike]

Let's see if I can explain this well enough. After reading this thread and watching the videos I decided to do 2 20 shot groups. These two represented the best ES-SD of my load development for my Seekins Element in 6.5 PRC. This is 55.0 and 56.5 grains of H1000 behind 156 Bergers with an initial ES of 4 and 7 respectively in 3 shot groups. While too close to call I was just going to stick with the 55 grains as it also showed the best accuracy. Well the 3 shot .45 group is out the window since it was right at an inch with 20 rounds. With the 20 shot strings the ES was quite a different story. The 55 grain load had an ES of 70 and the 56.5 grain load had an ES of 27. Unfortunately I had a friend shoot the 56.5 grain group and the accuracy was terrible. I was also working on a 7mm PRC Element in between so I had him helping. I plan to go out and shot 10 at the 56.5 charge weight on a prefect day and see what my groups look like.

For what it's worth I was using a Labradar and I was shooting 5 shots and then putting the rifle aside with the chiller. It was a 40 out so the barrel was never very hot. I am certainly no reloading expert and I am fairly new. No doubt this comes into play but I am confident in my loading consistency.

I shot all 20 rounds of factory Precision Hunter in 7 PRC with a disappointing group of about 2.2 inches and an ES of 62. The dispersion is almost a perfect circle. If I picked the best three I would be talking bug hole stories which sorta makes Hornady's point. I had a pretty good rest on a bipod with a rear bag. I hope my handholds produce better results!

 

[huntnful]

Let's see if I can explain this well enough. After reading this thread and watching the videos I decided to do 2 20 shot groups. These two represented the best ES-SD of my load development for my Seekins Element in 6.5 PRC. This is 55.0 and 56.5 grains of H1000 behind 156 Bergers with an initial ES of 4 and 7 respectively in 3 shot groups. While too close to call I was just going to stick with the 55 grains as it also showed the best accuracy. Well the 3 shot .45 group is out the window since it was right at an inch with 20 rounds. With the 20 shot strings the ES was quite a different story. The 55 grain load had an ES of 70 and the 56.5 grain load had an ES of 27. Unfortunately I had a friend shoot the 56.5 grain group and the accuracy was terrible. I was also working on a 7mm PRC Element in between so I had him helping. I plan to go out and shot 10 at the 56.5 charge weight on a prefect day and see what my groups look like.

For what it's worth I was using a Labradar and I was shooting 5 shots and then putting the rifle aside with the chiller. It was a 40 out so the barrel was never very hot. I am certainly no reloading expert and I am fairly new. No doubt this comes into play but I am confident in my loading consistency.

I shot all 20 rounds of factory Precision Hunter in 7 PRC with a disappointing group of about 2.2 inches and an ES of 62. The dispersion is almost a perfect circle. If I picked the best three I would be talking bug hole stories which sorta makes Hornady's point. I had a pretty good rest on a bipod with a rear bag. I hope my handholds produce better results!

Honestly a 20 shot 1” group isn’t bad at all. I’d stick with the 55gr. load. Did you see how many shots were at the extreme ends of the ES? Like were 90% of the shots within a 30 ES with only 1 or 2 random high and low? That could be from new brass or something

 

[huntnful]

This was a 10 shot group to solidify my zero. Came up .1 Mil after I was done shooting it.

But there was probably two 3 shot strings that were .2-.3” while shooting the ten shots. These larger groups are just an eye opener of choosing loads based off, seating depth, charge weights ect. with only small group testing. Same exact load can shoot a .2” group, as well as a .7 group if you pick the most outside 3 shots on the target, without changing a single thing. But the majority of them will fall within .5”.

 

[Harvey_NW]

These larger groups are just an eye opener of choosing loads based off, seating depth, charge weights ect. with only small group testing.

Agreed. I still do small sample testing to get an indication of consistency, and some velocity numbers. But the 10+ shot groups really build confidence. Also if load development doesn't work on a new barrel, I can't wait until this one gets "broke in". Not even 100 rounds on it yet. Maybe it will get rid of that damn flier..

 

[huntnful]

Agreed. I still do small sample testing to get an indication of consistency, and some velocity numbers. But the 10+ shot groups really build confidence. Also if load development doesn't work on a new barrel, I can't wait until this one gets "broke in". Not even 100 rounds on it yet. Maybe it will get rid of that damn flier..
View attachment 536527

Exactly!


This is a brand new rifle also. I loaded up 3 different bullets with decent charge weights, shot 6 shot groups with each bullet. Then just picked the best bullet based off those groups. Now I’ll put the first 150 shots on the barrel with that load and bullet and possibly revisit more testing afterwards!