Wyoming long range hunting debate

[wind gypsy]

Anyone advocating for restrictions based on means and methods is just interested in restricting competition. They want to force out the other hunters and have the resource to themselves.

Sure there's lots of that but to pretend that's the only reason anyone would want means and methods restrictions is ignorant at best. That's as nice as I can put it.

There's lots of people who just like to hunt and will do archery, firearm, or muzzleloader depending on the opportunities in front of them. I dont know about you but I like the idea of animals having a better than tiny chance of making it through a fall alive.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Friendly banter is one thing but when it becomes tribal we lose and the loons win.

Amen, this is just a fun thought experiment, I know some of us would like it to happen in the real world. I also have my concerns that most game agencies (especially in crazy leftist states like co) it would probably not be as some of us want and could be used to just become ultra restrictive, ie only allowing bows or whatever, but it’s fun to talk about and steel man some of these arguments

 

[littlebigtine]

You just further supported my point. You are right, mule deer are facing terrible challenges on other levels too. Winter range development, poor predator management, drought, and severe winter cycles, etc.

So isn’t that all the more reason why less lethal manners of take are necessary now?

Your argument is like telling someone to cut off their hand because they have gangrene on their leg.

People in Idaho are trying to get IDFG to get rid of all doe hunts in central Idaho units.

They argue that IDFG is just in it for the money and the doe harvest is driving the herd further into historically low population estimates.

If they would read the studies that IDFG publishes, they would understand that the only unit that allows rifle doe harvest out of youth season has had issues with fawn birthweights being suboptimal for some time.

Why is that?

Habitat encroachment on vital winter range

Carrying capacity

Environmental stressors like migrating over roads and highways.

Hunters tend to have an egocentric view of conservation because its natural to assume that the literal killing of an animal is the direct cause for a decline in population.

The reality is that, outside of season there are 300 other days in the year that mule deer struggle to survive in this modern world.

Yes harvest has an effect, but buck harvest doesnt even come close to the magnitude that vehicle collisions with adult does has on a population.

Already this spring/early summer on a stretch of highway just south of my house I have seen 13 does laying in the ditch. Happens every year. Last year I counted 24 total. That just on a 3 mile stretch of highway. Total elk and deer collisions on a 45 mile stretch through my county are approaching 1000 since 2021.

Go look at the doe harvest in unit 48 and 49 from 2021-2024 and tell me that hunters are the reason mule deer are struggling.

Sure, hunters harvest animals, but that activity generates the most powerful economic and cultural force for protecting those very species.

Take away hunting, and you don’t just lose opportunities. You lose interest. And when interest fades, so does funding, advocacy, habitat investment, and the political will to keep wild places wild.

Mule deer, elk and every other big game species benefit directly from the dollars, stewardship, and sheer attention that hunting brings. In fact, interest may be the single most important protective mechanism these species have

 

[Hnthrdr]

Your argument is like telling someone to cut off their hand because they have gangrene on their leg.

People in Idaho are trying to get IDFG to get rid of all doe hunts in central Idaho units.

They argue that IDFG is just in it for the money and the doe harvest is driving the herd further into historically low population estimates.

If they would read the studies that IDFG publishes, they would understand that the only unit that allows rifle doe harvest out of youth season has had issues with fawn birthweights being suboptimal for some time.

Why is that?

Habitat encroachment on vital winter range

Carrying capacity

Environmental stressors like migrating over roads and highways.

Hunters tend to have an egocentric view of conservation because its natural to assume that the literal killing of an animal is the direct cause for a decline in population.

The reality is that, outside of season there are 300 other days in the year that mule deer struggle to survive in this modern world.

Yes harvest has an effect, but buck harvest doesnt even come close to the magnitude that vehicle collisions with adult does has on a population.

Already this spring/early summer on a stretch of highway just south of my house I have seen 13 does laying in the ditch. Happens every year. Last year I counted 24 total. That just on a 3 mile stretch of highway. Total elk and deer collisions on a 45 mile stretch through my county are approaching 1000 since 2021.

Go look at the doe harvest in unit 48 and 49 from 2021-2024 and tell me that hunters are the reason mule deer are struggling.

Sure, hunters harvest animals, but that activity generates the most powerful economic and cultural force for protecting those very species.

Take away hunting, and you don’t just lose opportunities. You lose interest. And when interest fades, so does funding, advocacy, habitat investment, and the political will to keep wild places wild.

Mule deer, elk and every other big game species benefit directly from the dollars, stewardship, and sheer attention that hunting brings. In fact, interest may be the single most important protective mechanism these species have

You started strong and then you finished the argument like every influencer ever…

Most of us believe there are many many factors effecting herd health. We (hunters) are not the sole cause and reducing hunter efficiency is not a sole solution it’s a tool in what should be a very large and complex tool belt

 

[Jordan Smith]

Hunter success from the non mandatory surveys is often over 50% for a lot of the late season rifle hunts, just like it is extremely high for 1st rifle elk, yet hovers around 10% for archery… it is often double that for otc rifle elk tags… see how it seems that if we limited tech in units and times we can manipulate hunter success?

Except that doesn't account for the way higher percentage of animals wounded via archery that die eventually but are not reported on any hunter success report.

 

[littlebigtine]

You started strong and then you finished the argument like every influencer ever…

Most of us believe there are many many factors effecting herd health. We (hunters) are not the sole cause and reducing hunter efficiency is not a sole solution it’s a tool in what should be a very large and complex tool belt

If an influencer said it, is it wrong?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

What influencer is complaining about dead deer on the road? I want to support him on instagram.

 

[Flyjunky]

What are ya gonna do when banning shooting over 75 yards doesn’t work?

Ban hunting?

Exactly my point with all this nonsense. We put bandaids all over the problem but it’s not going to stop the inevitable unless the root problems are addressed in a meaningful way.

 

[Hnthrdr]

If an influencer said it, is it wrong?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

What influencer is complaining about dead deer on the road? I want to support him on instagram.

The whole part about how we have to have unlimited attention brought to hunting or it is gone, is what I was referring to, like I said I am in agreement with like 90% of what you said. I think tweaks to tech to keep things more “fair chase” should be on the table. I mean we can have a continuum from using a spear all the way up to thermal gunning with full auto from a helicopter to kill animals, I think sometimes making it extra hard on ourselves is okay. Also if you think limiting tech will make people lose interest why is it that archery got so popular in Co that they had to regulate NR tags? Kind of flies in the face of that idea

 

[Sccritterkiller]

It's obviously let's throw it all at the wall and see what sticks season. Take a deep breath folks..go outside.

‘Nonresident Native’ Tags Could Bring Former Wyomingites Back Home To Hunt

People born and raised in Wyoming who move to other states must pay expensive nonresident tag fees to come back to hunt. Legislators are considering…

cowboystatedaily.com

 

[SDHNTR]

If an influencer said it, is it wrong?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

What influencer is complaining about dead deer on the road? I want to support him on instagram.

Yes, by definition and pure existence, everything an influencer says or has ever said is wrong.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Common sense says fixing habitat degradation and fragmentation, invasive encroachment, competition for resources with elk and livestock, and drought/severe winter is a bit more challenging than a hunting reg tweak.

Isn't that his point though?

LR rifle hunting has the potential to grow into an actual issue for game populations. But it is not demonstrably affecting things right now. Outside of people making sweeping conclusions based on Youtube videos of LR hunting and anecdotes. The data does not yet support it being a big problem.

There's very solid data pointing to a substantial increase in archery success rates. And obviously that's still way down the list of priorities compared to the habitat factors you mentioned. But if you want to hit the easy button of making a new hunting regulation (since you said it's the easiest option), it would be for archery. But no one wants to do that because this is a 95% vibes based discussion.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Isn't that his point though?

LR rifle hunting has the potential to grow into an actual issue for game populations. But it is not demonstrably affecting things right now. Outside of people making sweeping conclusions based on Youtube videos of LR hunting and anecdotes. The data does not yet support it being a big problem.

There's very solid data pointing to a substantial increase in archery success rates. And obviously that's still way down the list of priorities compared to the habitat factors you mentioned. But if you want to hit the easy button of making a new hunting regulation (since you said it's the easiest option), it would be for archery. But no one wants to do that because this is a 95% vibes based discussion.

What would you propose the new archery reg be? Success rates are typically 7-10% on the high end for archery hunters how will you reel them back from those numbers? Early and late season deer hunts enjoy well into the double digit success with current rifle tech usually 50% or more

 

[OKHunter84]

More rules aren't always necessarily a good thing. If you make rules for shooting distance and having to have a long range certificate, then what about fitness? Have to do a fitness test to hunt wilderness.

The only way would be regulating optics. You could have open sight seasons or maybe mandate straight wall cartridges might help a little.

I would agree that archery would have a higher wound rate.

 

[Flyjunky]

What would you propose the new archery reg be? Success rates are typically 7-10% on the high end for archery hunters how will you reel them back from those numbers? Early and late season deer hunts enjoy well into the double digit success with current rifle tech usually 50% or more

Are you really saying these early and late rifle hunts have high success % because of rifle tech?

Seems these hunts have always had high success just by the nature of the timing. Why do you think migration hunts, rut hunts, etc have always been sought after tags….since, well, forever.

How about we cut all early season and rut hunts when the deer are most vulnerable? Have all mule deer hunts happen Oct. 1 - 14th? I don’t see a problem with that.

 

[longrangelead]

First, we don't need more government interference in something nearly impossible to enforce in a practical fashion.

Second, hunters as a whole suck at shooting and we're not honest about it with ourselves.

Because we shoot to hunt, we should shoot MORE before hunting at any distance. Building skill through practice is far more "ethical" than self limiting range or legislating whatever regulation that can't be enforced.
A competency test is a good idea except 99% of people will only practice enough to pass it and go back to old habits.

Maybe we should start with a self evaluation?

What size target are we trying to hit? 10 inches? 12 inches? 16 inches?

At what distance?

How about adding some stress? A timed test with enough shots to both simulate a shit show and a solid group size?

10 rounds in a minute?

"but my rifle only holds four..."

figure in a mag change or reload.


If only there was a target with rings in a meaningful spacing.

Now shoot 10 shots in one minute at 100 yds and see how that "half moa all day" rifle does for ya.

Didn't get 10 shots off? huh...

Now use the measured rings to extrapolate to distance what you and your system IS ACTUALLY capable of under stress/excitement.

Let's say your worst shot is 6 moa on that target. 6Moa in a 12 inch target = 200 yard max range.

If we're being honest with no ego, we own that worst shot and decide to be better...

Ya, but...

Ya, but I shoot prone.
Fine, same target, no time limit, prone, 10 shots.
Now you know your "zero" and best group size in best scenario.

I'd bet most hunter's groups are at least 2x bigger than they think AND their zero is not actually centered behind their reticle.

Ya, but...my $10,000 Gunwerks...
You have to be able to shoot it for it to be useful beyond point blank range.

If only there was a place we could get coaching to be better at shooting to hunt...

 

[Hnthrdr]

Are you really saying these early and late rifle hunts have high success % because of rifle tech?

Seems these hunts have always had high success just by the nature of the timing. Why do you think migration hunts, rut hunts, etc have always been sought after tags….since, well, forever.

How about we cut all early season and rut hunts when the deer are most vulnerable? Have all mule deer hunts happen Oct. 1 - 14th? I don’t see a problem with that.

when animals are most vulnerable to getting killed should we hunt them with the most technologically advanced rifles or a more primitive weapon?

You know I think that is another option, moving season dates around is another tool in the tool box. That is all I am saying. Will guys be seeing many bucks or decent bucks in early Oct Probably not, but it would achieve the same effect… heck would probably have better luck think with an iron sight 30-30 still hunting timber anyhow

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

What would you propose the new archery reg be? Success rates are typically 7-10% on the high end for archery hunters how will you reel them back from those numbers? Early and late season deer hunts enjoy well into the double digit success with current rifle tech usually 50% or more

Numbers can be interpreted a lots of ways but this is from AZ in 2024 for deer:

 

[Hnthrdr]

First, we don't need more government interference in something nearly impossible to enforce in a practical fashion.

Second, hunters as a whole suck at shooting and we're not honest about it with ourselves.

Because we shoot to hunt, we should shoot MORE before hunting at any distance. Building skill through practice is far more "ethical" than self limiting range or legislating whatever regulation that can't be enforced.
A competency test is a good idea except 99% of people will only practice enough to pass it and go back to old habits.

Maybe we should start with a self evaluation?

What size target are we trying to hit? 10 inches? 12 inches? 16 inches?

At what distance?

How about adding some stress? A timed test with enough shots to both simulate a shit show and a solid group size?

10 rounds in a minute?

"but my rifle only holds four..."

figure in a mag change or reload.

View attachment 892697
If only there was a target with rings in a meaningful spacing.

Now shoot 10 shots in one minute at 100 yds and see how that "half moa all day" rifle does for ya.

Didn't get 10 shots off? huh...

Now use the measured rings to extrapolate to distance what you and your system IS ACTUALLY capable of under stress/excitement.

Let's say your worst shot is 6 moa on that target. 6Moa in a 12 inch target = 200 yard max range.

If we're being honest with no ego, we own that worst shot and decide to be better...

Ya, but...

Ya, but I shoot prone.
Fine, same target, no time limit, prone, 10 shots.
Now you know your "zero" and best group size in best scenario.

I'd bet most hunter's groups are at least 2x bigger than they think AND their zero is not actually centered behind their reticle.

Ya, but...my $10,000 Gunwerks...
You have to be able to shoot it for it to be useful beyond point blank range.

If only there was a place we could get coaching to be better at shooting to hunt...

Amen agree with all of this. WE as hunters should self regulate… but almost everyone will push the limits. How impossible would it be for fish and game to enforce some arbitrage distance, but if it’s muzzleloader season with open sights and you are running around with a scoped 30-06 easy to enforce, or archery season or iron sights on and you have a scoped rifle it’s easy enough to enforce that. These shouldn’t be laws it should be a tool within the game agency to adjust the ease of harvest success from unit to unit.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I don’t know how they determine when the seasons are out west, but back east they are logical and make pretty good sense. When the foliage is thick and visibility is limited, it’s bow season. As the foliage comes down, we get early muzzleloader, and then by the time the leaves are fully down and visibility is at its best, it is rifle season. From a safety perspective and a hunting style perspective, this makes good sense. Of course some bow hunters still complain because the rut usually falls into rifle season. And some rifle hunters still complain that archers get first crack at the nice bucks.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Hnthrdr]

Numbers can be interpreted a lots of ways but this is from AZ in 2024 for deer:
View attachment 892734

Glad AZ is putting out seemingly good data, the archery/ muzzy hunts are rut hunts in Az correct?