Wyoming long range hunting debate

[wind gypsy]

What are ya gonna do when banning shooting over 75 yards doesn’t work?

Ban hunting?

Admit to being wrong, eliminate all weapon and technology restrictions, and try to figure out how hunters are able to get within 75 yards of any deer they've spotted within 1000 yards.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

You saying straight wall cartridge is gonna turn a 20 tag unit into a what 25 tag unit?

Anyone saying that is delusional.

We wiped out the bison (and most other animals) with straight wall blackpowder cartridges and by taking away habitat.

Protecting habitat and only taking mature males helps herd numbers.

It really makes me scratch my head when people complain about not enough animals and too many people, yet the states offer cow and doe tags.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Hnthrdr]

Anyone saying that is delusional.

We wiped out the bison (and most other animals) with straight wall blackpowder cartridges and by taking away habitat.

Protecting habitat and only taking mature males helps herd numbers.

It really makes me scratch my head when people complain about not enough animals and too many people, yet the states offer cow and doe tags.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Well part of Buffalo getting wiped was the shooting from trains, from horse back, shooting them non stop, they are a bit of a different beast from elk or deer…. I get it there will be companies and people who will push the limit of a 30-30, with some whiz bang peep set up that cost 1000 bucks (revic I’m looking at you) but the majority of hunters will be forced to stay within the firearms reasonable reach/ their own eye sight.

If hunter success went down in a unit and there was proliferation of the species because of it, why would tags not go up?

 

[SDHNTR]

So where were these turrets, advanced scopes, precision rifles in the 80’s when the mule deer population really started declining?

Common sense would say the animals are facing a much bigger problem/s than fancy guns. But like you said, common sense is in short supply so let’s just keep adding stupid restrictions that, in the end, will result in no measurable gain.

You just further supported my point. You are right, mule deer are facing terrible challenges on other levels too. Winter range development, poor predator management, drought, and severe winter cycles, etc.

So isn’t that all the more reason why less lethal manners of take are necessary now?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Well part of Buffalo getting wiped was the shooting from trains, from horse back, shooting them non stop, they are a bit of a different beast from elk or deer…. I get it there will be companies and people who will push the limit of a 30-30, with some whiz bang peep set up that cost 1000 bucks (revic I’m looking at you) but the majority of hunters will be forced to stay within the firearms reasonable reach/ their own eye sight.

If hunter success went down in a unit and there was proliferation of the species because of it, why would tags not go up?

All you have to do to make the number of animals go up is protect habitat and not shoot cows and does.

If you want more mature bulls and bucks, you don’t let people take spikes. It’s not rocket science.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Q_Sertorius]

You just further supported my point. You are right, mule deer are facing terrible challenges on other levels too. Winter range development, poor predator management, drought, and severe winter cycles, etc.

So isn’t that all the more reason why less lethal manners of take are necessary now?

No. You are missing the point from all the stuff we learned with salmon. Less lethal means doesn’t make a meaningful difference when the problems are further up the chain. You have to fix the habitat problems and address predation (which disproportionately hits animals that aren’t yet mature). Then you cull the herd by taking mature males so that more females live through the winter.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Hnthrdr]

All you have to do to make the number of animals go up is protect habitat and not shoot cows and does.

If you want more mature bulls and bucks, you don’t let people take spikes. It’s not rocket science.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I agree with most of that, yes we should absolutely not be shooting does in most of the west honestly. Cows depend on the units. But once again we are talking cutting tag numbers to increase game production vs. hamstringing ourselves to increase game production without cutting tags…

 

[Hnthrdr]

No. You are missing the point from all the stuff we learned with salmon. Less lethal means doesn’t make a meaningful difference when the problems are further up the chain. You have to fix the habitat problems and address predation (which disproportionately hits animals that aren’t yet mature). Then you cull the herd by taking mature males so that more females live through the winter.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Since you guys are stuck on salmon here is an analogy. What if all fishermen were reduced to using a single barbless hook, vs nets, snagging, barbed, treble, ect, ect? Would it result in more or less take of salmon? I get they face other issues with dams and pollution and poaching and tribals stuff

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I agree with most of that, yes we should absolutely not be shooting does in most of the west honestly. Cows depend on the units. But once again we are talking cutting tag numbers to increase game production vs. hamstringing ourselves to increase game production without cutting tags…

If people are only allowed to shoot mature males, then the population won’t suffer regardless of current means. Culling males before winter helps the herd.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[BRTreedogs]

Admit to being wrong, eliminate all weapon and technology restrictions, and try to figure out how hunters are able to get within 75 yards of any deer they've spotted within 1000 yards.

Nothing ever gets given back.

The pitch fork holders will just attack the next thing to take away from hunters.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Admit to being wrong, eliminate all weapon and technology restrictions, and try to figure out how hunters are able to get within 75 yards of any deer they've spotted within 1000 yards.

Where are these mythical hunters that are able to stalk up to 925 yards without blowing out an animal 100% of the time? Or are these folks actually passing on stalks because the animal is not approachable?

I know that if you force a 75 yard limit on all shots, no matter the weapon, the number of hunters sitting water will increase significantly which would have a negative effect on wildlife especially in the more arid environments. Get ready for a poop show and violence when you have 100s of folks trying to sit the same handful of water holes.

(Not directed at any specific individual) Maybe this is what the elitist hunters ultimately want: less competition. The fact this ultimately hurts hunting and benefits the antis doesn't matter as long as the elitists get what they want.

 

[SDHNTR]

No. You are missing the point from all the stuff we learned with salmon. Less lethal means doesn’t make a meaningful difference when the problems are further up the chain. You have to fix the habitat problems and address predation (which disproportionately hits animals that aren’t yet mature). Then you cull the herd by taking mature males so that more females live through the winter.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

You aren’t wrong, but those bigger issue problems will take moving impossible mountains to change. Not happening. Some simple game take restrictions, which we have dealt with for decades, are far more practical.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

But you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t have “plentiful tags (including cows and does)” and have “more animals.” It doesn’t matter if you are using spears - if you kill the cows and does, the population won’t grow. Our ancestors proved that with most of the world’s megafauna.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[SDHNTR]

Where are these mythical hunters that are able to stalk up to 925 yards without blowing out an animal 100% of the time? Or are these folks actually passing on stalks because the animal is not approachable?

I know that if you force a 75 yard limit on all shots, no matter the weapon, the number of hunters sitting water will increase significantly which would have a negative effect on wildlife especially in the more arid environments. Get ready for a poop show and violence when you have 100s of folks trying to sit the same handful of water holes.

(Not directed at any specific individual) Maybe this is what the elitist hunters ultimately want: less competition. The fact this ultimately hurts hunting and benefits the antis doesn't matter as long as the elitists get what they want.

This is already happening. Welcome to Arizona.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

(Not directed at any specific individual) Maybe this is what the elitist hunters ultimately want: less competition. The fact this ultimately hurts hunting and benefits the antis doesn't matter as long as the elitists get what they want.

100% correct. Anyone advocating for restrictions based on means and methods is just interested in restricting competition. They want to force out the other hunters and have the resource to themselves.

That’s why it’s usually rifle hunters complaining that bow hunters get first access and “wound all the deer so they all go die and rot before rifle season.” And the bow hunters all complain that the rifle hunters have it too easy and don’t have any skill and etc.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Hnthrdr]

If people are only allowed to shoot mature males, then the population won’t suffer regardless of current means. Culling males before winter helps the herd.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Agreed, most people don’t know how to correctly age a male on the hoof, antlers are not always the tell tale indicator that we think they are and I am not in the business of saying what people can and cannot take with a tag that they have legal obtained and are hunting with the legal equipment for said season. I have my standards and they are mine.

Colorado has ensured that almost no large antlered males will make it through to the winter with very liberal buck tags in mid to late November with scoped rifle season 3&4… our deer herd is still heading the in the wrong direction do to probably issuing too many tags and the ability to really reach out and touch an animal at range when they are vulnerable. Hunter success from the non mandatory surveys is often over 50% for a lot of the late season rifle hunts, just like it is extremely high for 1st rifle elk, yet hovers around 10% for archery… it is often double that for otc rifle elk tags… see how it seems that if we limited tech in units and times we can manipulate hunter success?

An example from Wyo: A buddy of mine has a ranch in SE Wyo, they are allowed to hunt elk with rifles starting in mid Sept. he has filled his tag on a bull every single year, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel

 

[wind gypsy]

IMO the argument is more about the quality of the hunt in most cases.. From what I understand mule deer could sustain existing and even higher buck harvest in much of the country as long as the doe pop is kept in check. For me, hunting loses luster when the lethality of hunters keeps the vast majority of better than avg genetic potential bucks from reaching maturity. The "hunt" aspect is less enticing when its clear most decent bucks have little chance of surviving based on their headgear.

More balanced age class bucks on the landscape that are harder to kill such that success rates are roughly the same as it would be with fewer bucks on the landscape with regs making them easier to kill.. I know which experience i'd prefer.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Nothing ever gets given back.

The pitch fork holders will just attack the next thing to take away from hunters.

Not true an example is when the game agencies slashed tags massively post the big winter of 2022 those tag numbers are coming back on sw wyo and nw co. I don’t think anyone is saying, no more scoped rifles anywhere for any season. In my mind and the other supporters can correct me if I’m wrong, is like a dial, you can dial it up in certain units that are struggling or need relief with the strictest tech restrictions ie muzzleloader/ bow/ iron sight only(without just slashing a ton of tags) and dial it back, allow the most modern tech in units and seasons that do not need the help. I think any of us want to get rid of range finders and scopes and modern cartridges.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

100% correct. Anyone advocating for restrictions based on means and methods is just interested in restricting competition. They want to force out the other hunters and have the resource to themselves.

That’s why it’s usually rifle hunters complaining that bow hunters get first access and “wound all the deer so they all go die and rot before rifle season.” And the bow hunters all complain that the rifle hunters have it too easy and don’t have any skill and etc.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Friendly banter is one thing but when it becomes tribal we lose and the loons win.

 

[Hnthrdr]

100% correct. Anyone advocating for restrictions based on means and methods is just interested in restricting competition. They want to force out the other hunters and have the resource to themselves.

That’s why it’s usually rifle hunters complaining that bow hunters get first access and “wound all the deer so they all go die and rot before rifle season.” And the bow hunters all complain that the rifle hunters have it too easy and don’t have any skill and etc.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Come to Co bow seasons and you will see there is no real restrictions placed on the competition, it’s been come one come all for years, guys with stick bows all the way up to the latest and greatest compounds out there hunting, with Bows. I believe if we are concerned with age class and want to put the hunt back into hunting blanket tech restrictions will alter the competition between man and beast, not really between hunters. There is already so much variance between hunters (age, weight, marksmanship, woodsmanship, stalking, tracking, fitness) if every one is restricted to the same weapon during that season not sure how it is edging people out.

Trust me I LOVE rifle hunting especially when I’ve been sub 100 yards on some monster bulls all sept and just didn’t get shot opportunities or angles ect… with a rifle in my hand if I see my target animal at 1000 yards I get the, “ that’s a dead buck walking feeling”
With my bow or muzzy or iron sight 30-30, I get the, “alright there is a bit of hope let’s give it a crack feeling”