WY Corner crossing update

[mtwarden]

In Southeast Montana, it would certainly open up some pretty decent hunting—you'd have to be willing to walk a bit, but would be worth it from what I've seen. Guessing it's not unique to just SE Montana.

Those guys from Michigan seemed to do OK

 

[RyanT26]

I’m entertained that corners are somehow magic gateways to untold hunting paradise.

Considering how landowners have treated it like their private land. It just might be. I think there’s gonna be a lot of corners being crossed this year just because.

 

[Lowell]

If that's the case then how can they prove trespassing?

They will not try if you step over the corner. OnX is your defense if anyone pushes it. Prosecutors in several counties for years have not been prosecuting corner jumping.

 

[nodakian]

It will be interesting to see how courts rule when a hunter crosses what appears to be a corner shown on OnX, but the true corner (marked by a monument) is somewhere else. Will the courts assume the hunter made a good faith attempt and dismiss the case? Or will they hold a hard line and only allow crossing at the monumented true corner? For public policy reasons, I would bet on the latter, but we will need to see some cases to see how this plays out.

 

[Erict]

Unless y'all do things different out West, the investigating officer requires probable cause that a violation/crime occurred in order to issue a ticket/make an arrest. In some situations discussed, hunters are found a long way, miles maybe, into private lands and that's plenty of probable cause to issue the ticket. In court, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, who must prove beyond a reasonable doubt for a conviction. Defendants don't need to prove anything. (Know, however, that if the case is civil, the plaintiff/prosecution only has to show the preponderance of the evidence, meaning "more likely than not" that it occurred).

Specific to corner crossing at exact corners, its going to be much harder for a complainant to initiate action unless there are pictures, video or physical evidence like boot prints, horse tracks, tire tracks, etc. that the investigating officer can use to develop probable cause. Filing a complaint that Joe Sixpack's pinky toe touched the ground on their side of the corner isn't probably cause. When it comes to a matter of feet, or even inches, neither side is likely to be able to claim that OnX or any other common GPS devices prove anything.

So, for now, we won. Hopefully, sportsmen take the time to know their rights and where they can cross and not be a jerk to the losing landowners (even if they deserve it). High profile "corners" like those roadside or where there are existing fences/enclosures will be the first tests of this ruling. Unless appeals are successful, I'll go out on a limb and say in a year or two the dust will have settled and the ranch owners will have new legal ways to deter crossers.

 

[Arctic Hunter]

I will believe we actually won something when state game agencies actually address this in the regs. Rather than leaving it a gray area, or an issue that nobody is really sure about.

I have several places here that I’d do it in a heart beat if I didn’t think it would get me in trouble, or at minimum cause me a headache.

 

[wapitibob]

I will believe we actually won something when state game agencies actually address this in the regs. Rather than leaving it a gray area, or an issue that nobody is really sure about.

I have several places here that I’d do it in a heart beat if I didn’t think it would get me in trouble, or at minimum cause me a headache.

What are you not sure about?

If there is no access except via two public corners, you can cross at the corner provided you don't touch the private land. Not "close" to the corner, at the corner.

If you trespass on pvt with the intent to hunt, fish, trap, or gather antlers, it's a game violation. If you trespass without said intent, it's criminal trespass and handled by the sheriffs office.

An "enclosure" can't be used to prevent you from crossing said corners, ie a fence or barrier.

People used to cross between the signs, so Eshelman put up the chain. When he did that he violated the Unlawful Enclosures Act. When the "4" got there to hunt, they grabbed the fence post and swung around it. The following year, they brought the ladder.

 

[Steve O]

I hope someone sincerely answers your question, but have you heard of Domanique Dawes? She would never climb a fence.

You corner crossers better up your fitness game!

 

[Weldor]

It will be interesting to see how courts rule when a hunter crosses what appears to be a corner shown on OnX, but the true corner (marked by a monument) is somewhere else. Will the courts assume the hunter made a good faith attempt and dismiss the case? Or will they hold a hard line and only allow crossing at the monumented true corner? For public policy reasons, I would bet on the latter, but we will need to see some cases to see how this plays out.

Agreed, But if the landowners fence and corner is off the monument who decides? If the fence has been there for years and years most states have passive posession laws. But that does not work if your fence is on goverment land, they can make you move it. Can you imagine what a mess that would be.

 

[ben h]

If you trespass on pvt with the intent to hunt, fish, trap, or gather antlers, it's a game violation. If you trespass without said intent, it's criminal trespass and handled by the sheriffs office.

I don't think anyone questions this. The question is how aggressively will someone be prosecuted who makes thier best possible effort to cross at a corner and does technically tresspass in doing so? At the end of the day the county prosecutor is an elected officail and I don't think it's a good career choice to try and appease a handful of wealthy landowners trying to bring bring the hammer down on people trying not to tresspass. I view this like prosecuting people who put one foot on your lawn, or kids getting a ball out of your yard and not much will become of it. I'm not going to be the 1st to test my hypothisis though, because it will cost thousands of $ to test it and a pretty hefty fine if you just pay it.

Ashley Davis was the county prosecutor who brought this case and she's no longer the county attorney (elected official), but she still works as an appointed attorney in their office. No idea if this had anything to do with that, or just a coincidence.

 

[wapitibob]

I don't think anyone questions this. The question is how aggressively will someone be prosecuted who makes their best possible effort to cross at a corner and does technically trespass in doing so? ........

Should it happen, I'll cross at a monument and if it isn't there, I'll cross where Onx shows the corner to be. And I will have my tracks on, to show the warden where I crossed when asked, per my conversations with both the WY Chief Game Warden as well one of his wardens in the field when I showed him where I was going to corner cross a few years ago.
I've talked to over a dozen wardens in WY. Every one of them has been fantastic; not the "I know your guilty of something" kind of crap I've seen here in OR. I don't anticipate any issues should I decide to cross at a corner and can show him/her that's what I did; going from public to public and staying off the private.

 

[mtwarden]

Years ago I had a warden working for me in Broadus that was inundated with trespass/hunting without permission calls south of town every Fall. When he went to investigate them he found a lot of the folks were actually legally hunting on State lands (adjacent to a country road). He took it upon himself to contact State Lands and see if they couldn't accurately show where adjacent State Lands were. He assisted State Lands in determining where the lands were and marking them as such.

While not all landowners were thrilled to death about this, most eventually came to terms with it and his "trespass" calls were ultimately cut nearly in half.

I don't think it's a stretch that if folks and organizations, at least in the 10th District, made an effort with their BLM and State Land offices that something similar couldn't be done at least in some areas.

 

[Rich M]

Time to bring Buzz back.

 

[wapitibob]

Time to bring Buzz back.

Talked to him last week, he's doing well.

 

[Customweld]

Time to bring Buzz back.

You can go get your fill of Buzz on Monstermuleys. This place is peaceful with out him.

 

[Arctic Hunter]

What are you not sure about?

If there is no access except via two public corners, you can cross at the corner provided you don't touch the private land. Not "close" to the corner, at the corner.

If you trespass on pvt with the intent to hunt, fish, trap, or gather antlers, it's a game violation. If you trespass without said intent, it's criminal trespass and handled by the sheriffs office.

An "enclosure" can't be used to prevent you from crossing said corners, ie a fence or barrier.

People used to cross between the signs, so Eshelman put up the chain. When he did that he violated the Unlawful Enclosures Act. When the "4" got there to hunt, they grabbed the fence post and swung around it. The following year, they brought the ladder.

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I don’t live in one of the 10th district states. If it were documented in our regulations, I would imagine there would be less unpleasant interactions between hunters and land owners. I had a land owner tell me last year that “unless I have a surveyor tacked to my $$$, I didn’t know where the line was” (despite what onx said).

Even if the complaint was referred to the county attorney, it would be my luck they’d push the issue and cause me a headache I don’t need. Rather than pointing to the regulations and telling them to leave people alone who are trying to follow the law.

 

[AHayes111]

I’m entertained that corners are somehow magic gateways to untold hunting paradise.

I tend to agree with this. With my background I can get access to a fair amount of landlocked public land for shed hunting. Are there some gems? yes but not very many and sadly they will not last long.Is it better than accessible public? most of the time. but not that much better. I can think of one large block and several smaller parcles of public that gets hunted harder than accessible public with similar terrain by the neighboring landowners. Is CC a win for sportsman? 100%. Is it going to put a big buck in every backpack? not a chance.

 

[TaperPin]

I tend to agree with this. With my background I can get access to a fair amount of landlocked public land for shed hunting. Are there some gems? yes but not very many and sadly they will not last long.Is it better than accessible public? most of the time. but not that much better. I can think of one large block and several smaller parcles of public that gets hunted harder than accessible public with similar terrain by the neighboring landowners. Is CC a win for sportsman? 100%. Is it going to put a big buck in every pot? not a chance.

I’m so much in favor of it, I’d like it if every hunter with the chance only hunts areas accessed via corner crossing. Many more folks should apply only in areas with significant corners to cross. A perfect place to vacation would be near corners. Need to take a group of boys scouts backpacking - go to corners. Obnoxious entitled tree huggers - go to corners. If someone is worried about tariffs, go to corners to relax. If celebrating because Cabinet members let you into a group chat, go to the corners. As a public service I’d pitch in a few bucks for billboards with a big arrow pointing to corners.

 

[wapitibob]

I’m entertained that corners are somehow magic gateways to untold hunting paradise.

One of the first things I look at is access and where everybody will be coming from. Funneling all of them thru a single access point when I don't have an alternative, isn't a place I'm spending much time looking at.