WSJ - Lead Ammo Study and Eagle, Posted Feb 17, 2022

[Bigjimbo769]

Here in California, there have actually been studies showing that the birds have been getting lead poisoning from the old fire towers in the area that were painted with lead based paint.

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/28/11449#ref-38

 

[sneaky]

I'd encourage you to listen to the first episode on my podcast, its all about hunters leading with non-lead ammunition.

I've hunted lead free for many years now. I've done the research on golden eagles and worked with others who have also conducted these studies and lead toxicity is a problem that is at least the western half of the NA continent wide. My call for hunters to switch to lead free is not about gun control at all, but rather a way to elevate your conservation ethic. For a minimal cost, you could have a significant impact. There are plenty of studies now on lead showing its impact if one wanted to read them. Citing them here to be dismissed out of hand isn't helpful to the cause. Yet the social capital to be gained by hunters by voluntarily switching would be a rare gain. We've seen recently what social cost there is for legal and regulated hunting of wolves north of YNP, and we have to ask if its worth to to hold on to something at all costs. Frankly, I see no win in holding out on using lead ammunition, but I do see the possibilities of increased hunter acceptance by the public when we make changes because its better for something other than the game we pursue.

So, why are they targeting hunters specifically and not including eagles eating fish with lead sinkers in their guts? The wolf quota had been reached in Region 3 in MT, that had already been established. There's absolutely NOTHING the hunting community can do that will ever be considered good enough for the pro-wolf groups. Nothing. There's enough wolves, confirmed through camera studies, in Idaho alone to meet the entire ESA delisting requirement for the entire northern Rockies region. They still file suit after suit, most with public funding through the EAJA. Wolf numbers are growing, raptor populations are increasing, not decreasing. Name one instance where we have acquiesced to the antis demands and they have stopped there and not used it as a stepping stone to more restrictions.

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[sneaky]

I’m seeing so many more eagles in Ohio in the last five years, soon they will be as numerous as our red tailed hawks. Definitely not concerned about a presumed loss of 3% of eagles. The days of ddt are over, bird populations are recovering most everywhere. Lead is not an issue for the ones that aren’t doing well. This tired argument echoes that of the California condors.

That's the thing, it's not a 3% loss. It's a 3% reduction in the growth rate of the population.

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[cubdriver84d]

Here in California, there have actually been studies showing that the birds have been getting lead poisoning from the old fire towers in the area that were painted with lead based paint.

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/28/11449#ref-38

Nice catch. Missed that part in that paper.

Let’s review: (1) they had direct evidence that a handful of condors fed on carcasses of animals that were harvested with lead ammo and therefore may have ingested lead fragments, they recovered fragments of lead from those condors suggesting that may have been the source of poisoning, and they corroborated that evidence with an isotopic analysis. (2) they had direct evidence that a handful of condors ingested paint chips suggesting that may have been a source of poisoning, and they corroborated that evidence with an isotopic analysis, noting that the paint chips had a different isotopic signature than the fragments and other bullets tested.

 

[Wrench]

Wait 1% stunted growth is more concerning than 4%....??? Also, I got money that more are killed by wind turbines and urbanization that lead from bullets.

I actually posted those numbers....you're correct.

 

[sneaky]

You can play the "correlation not causation" card all you want, but you have to look at the weight of evidence. Where is the evidence that the lead in raptors comes from water?

There's a closed mine less than a mile from my house that was once owned by Henry Ford. Lead for his car batteries is what he was after, silver and gold were byproducts. Earthquake in early 80s ruptured an underground water table and flooded it quicker than pumps at the time could remove it. Creek flows right through the mine site and dumps into the Salmon river less than a half mile downstream. Bald eagles and other raptors are a daily occurrence right on this stretch of the river. Still want to think that lead can't come from another source other than bullets?

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[Bubblehide]

Nice catch. Missed that part in that paper.

Let’s review: (1) they had direct evidence that a handful of condors fed on carcasses of animals that were harvested with lead ammo and therefore may have ingested lead fragments, they recovered fragments of lead from those condors suggesting that may have been the source of poisoning, and they corroborated that evidence with an isotopic analysis. (2) they had direct evidence that a handful of condors ingested paint chips suggesting that may have been a source of poisoning, and they corroborated that evidence with an isotopic analysis, noting that the paint chips had a different isotopic signature than the fragments and other bullets tested.

Nope, they report having evidence 1 condor ingested a lead projectile, for the rest they appear to be assuming the fragments found originated from ammunition. AGAIN isotope typing is a correlation, not proof. You seem to be having a very very difficult time understanding that fact.

 

[cubdriver84d]

Nope, they report having evidence 1 condor ingested a lead projectile, for the rest they appear to be assuming the fragments found originated from ammunition. AGAIN isotope typing is a correlation, not proof. You seem to be having a very very difficult time understanding that fact.

Then you’d agree there’s a chance that the lead in the paint chip birds wasn’t necessarily from the paint chips?

All I said was corroborated evidence, nothing about “proof”.

 

[Wrench]

There's a closed mine less than a mile from my house that was once owned by Henry Ford. Lead for his car batteries is what he was after, silver and gold were byproducts. Earthquake in early 80s ruptured an underground water table and flooded it quicker than pumps at the time could remove it. Creek flows right through the mine site and dumps into the Salmon river less than a half mile downstream. Bald eagles and other raptors are a daily occurrence right on this stretch of the river. Still want to think that lead can't come from another source other than bullets?

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And we remember this.....

Colorado Mine That Turned River Yellow Was Deliberately Opened, Congressman Says

A blowout at the Gold King mine sent 3 million gallons of contaminated water into the Animas River in August, turning it bright yellow.

www.buzzfeednews.com

 

[sneaky]

I would still like to hear a plausible hypothesis for how a condor or any other raptor could get a “lead-containing metal fragment” inside it from a source other than a lead bullet.

There are lead veins visible to the naked eye all around where I live... above a river loaded with eagles... it's not a stretch at all for them to ingest naturally occurring lead from the environment.

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[Bubblehide]

Then you’d agree there’s a chance that the lead in the paint chip birds wasn’t necessarily from the paint chips?

All I said was corroborated evidence, nothing about “proof”.

No, you are being as biased as the supposed researchers and trying to mislead people here, or you just do not understand what you are reading, you chose.

The only thing they did was to type the isotope as the same isotope as some ammunition. It is like saying that genetic evidence concludes that YOU killed a person when you have numerous identical twins.

 

[cubdriver84d]

There are lead veins visible to the naked eye all around where I live... above a river loaded with eagles... it's not a stretch at all for them to ingest naturally occurring lead from the environment.

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That would certainly be a plausible source to consider in that area.

 

[cubdriver84d]

No, you are being as biased as the supposed researchers and trying to mislead people here, or you just do not understand what you are reading, you chose.

The only thing they did was to type the isotope as the same isotope as some ammunition. It is like saying that genetic evidence concludes that YOU killed a person when you have numerous identical twins.

All I have stated is that they matched the isotopes between some of the birds’ tissue, fragments, and bullets, and that they similarly matched the isotopes in some of the other birds’ tissue and paint chips.

 

[Bubblehide]

All I have stated is that they matched the isotopes between some of the birds’ tissue, fragments, and bullets, and that they similarly matched the isotopes in some of the other birds’ tissue and paint chips.

Too late, you were already convicted of murder, sentenced to life without parole, and now serving that sentence.

 

[cubdriver84d]

Too late, you were already convicted of murder, sentenced to life without parole, and now serving that sentence.

Dang!

 

[Bubblehide]

Dang!

Yeah I know, it may have been one of your identical twins, maybe not, but clearly coming to a conclusion, as these so called researchers is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Montana Slim]

"So called researchers"

A paper published in the journal Science, with 27 authors and an enormous sample size....

Vs.

Some guys on the internet that almost certainly have not read the article, but know better because they have seen some eagles eating paint chips

 

[Bubblehide]

"So called researchers"

A paper published in the journal Science, with 27 authors and an enormous sample size....

Vs.

Some guys on the internet that almost certainly have not read the article, but know better because they have seen some eagles eating paint chips

So says a guy that can't get what other guys actually said.

 

[Wrench]

I remember those scientists who said the ice caps would be melted by 2013....

Again, agendas in action.

 

[Bubblehide]

I remember those scientists who said the ice caps would be melted by 2013....

Again, agendas in action.

Oh come on now, scientists don't have agendas, they just present unbiased facts.