WSJ - Lead Ammo Study and Eagle, Posted Feb 17, 2022

[Tod osier]

1) Does lead from bullets kill raptors? There is no evidence at all that this is the case. In reality, it legitimately looks like it is not the case at all.

2). Does lead from bullets present a real risk to human consumption? While there is sensationalized “studies”, and I put them in quotes for reason, that try to link minor elevated lead levels to game meat consumption, they did not factor in overall lifestyle and other contributing issues. One study did, from Italy IIRC, that showed hunters having slightly elevated lead levels. However when they isolated those that drink wine, the none hunting wine drinkers did have elevated levels that matched the hunting wine drinkers.

3). If the issue is saving birds- why are non of the studies and groups pushing for the removal of the largest factors contributing to raptor mortality?

For 1) it is out of my wheelhouse to speak with authority, but absolutely lead kills raptors, there are multitudes of studies documenting every aspect that you could dream of (dozens or hundreds of individual cases and studies). Finkelstein et al. 2012 documents very specifically how in condors and (contrary to what is repeated time and time again) makes a solid link that the source of the lead is bullets.

For 2), I'd ask what a "real risk" is, it is different for everyone. You aren't going to drop dead of lead in meat since our digestive systems are different than birds. My concern and what I base my decisions on it the lead exposure in children, specifically my child. There is no doubt that lead levels are higher in people that eat lead shot venison, there are multiple studies now that offer very suggestive evidence (enough for me to raise and eyebrow). For me it is an easy pass. I'm absolutely happy with my choices notox, you aren't. I also prefer not to scatter lead around, if I'm going to scatter stuff around the landscape due to my lifestyle, I'd prefer it not be lead (although I've scattered my share).

For 3), I think you are looking at this a little wrong and it is hard to appreciate from the outside. The people doing the science are one level, but they are not doing the advocating for the most part. The groups sensationalizing the work are not the scientists. There are plenty of people working on the other problems, they just aren't being talked about here.

 

[Tod osier]

They can't. Someone gets a PhD and suddenly whatever they say say is true.

_____________________________________

So, why aren't coyotes and bears dying from chronic lead poisoning? What about turkey buzzards and other birds of scavenge?

Coyotes and bears have different digestive systems than birds and are not as readily affected.

It is a problem in turkey vultures, no one cares about them compared to eagles or condors.

Lead Exposure in Free-Flying Turkey Vultures Is Associated with Big Game Hunting in California

Predatory and scavenging birds are at risk of lead exposure when they feed on animals injured or killed by lead ammunition. While lead ammunition has been banned from waterfowl hunting in North America for almost two decades, lead ammunition is still widely used for hunting big game and small...

journals.plos.org

 

[Bubblehide]

Coyotes and bears have different digestive systems than birds and are not as readily affected.

It is a problem in turkey vultures, no one cares about them compared to eagles or condors.

Lead Exposure in Free-Flying Turkey Vultures Is Associated with Big Game Hunting in California

Predatory and scavenging birds are at risk of lead exposure when they feed on animals injured or killed by lead ammunition. While lead ammunition has been banned from waterfowl hunting in North America for almost two decades, lead ammunition is still widely used for hunting big game and small...

journals.plos.org

Another study based on conjecture.

 

[cubdriver84d]

Ask yourself if it rains during winter months, and if there is runoff from the rain. Then ask yourself if that runoff could have picked up some naturally occurring lead in the environment, and could those birds be ingesting lead from runoff.

When ice cream consumption increases, there are more drownings, therefore eating ice cream must cause drownings. That makes as much sense as bullets are the source of lead in these birds. Hopefully you can grasp the meaning of the ice cream correlation.

You can play the "correlation not causation" card all you want, but you have to look at the weight of evidence. Where is the evidence that the lead in raptors comes from water?

 

[Tod osier]

After evisceration. Small lead fragments are not “traveling” through 18” of tissue whether lung, stomach, or muscle. They pointed this out indirectly when the stated that not rinsing the carcass first, only 3% samples contained lead. With rinsing 11% at 45cm did.


This is the problem with research across the board- those doing the research lack an understanding of the entire thing. I am not a researcher, I do understand terminal ballistics and what bullets do in tissue. “Travel” whether intentional or not, gives the reader the belief that as the bullet is expanding/fragmenting inside the animal that fragments are being thrown radially outward from the wound path up to 18”. That is not true. It may not matter to the gut pile deal, it absolutely matters in being clear to people.

It would be no different than shooting a block of gel with all fragments remaining within 3” of the PC, then letting the gel block melt and carry those fragments in a 5 foot puddle, coming back, taking a radiograph of the puddle, and exclaiming that lead creates a five foot wound.

I see your issue, OK, yes, I agree from that perspective. For me travel is travel, no matter how it gets there. If you have a splashy bullet that makes a lot of particles they get all over. They are not so much worried about mechanism, they are worried about outcome in relation to public health - if the lead gets somewhere it is there no matter how it got there.

You have posted about a million pics of wound cavities large enough to make me believe that lead particles are moving more than 3" through meat.

 

[Bubblehide]

For 1) it is out of my wheelhouse to speak with authority, but absolutely lead kills raptors, there are multitudes of studies documenting every aspect that you could dream of (dozens or hundreds of individual cases and studies). Finkelstein et al. 2012 documents very specifically how in condors and (contrary to what is repeated time and time again) makes a solid link that the source of the lead is bullets.

There is zero evidence that the source is bullets, it is an assumption, and nothing but an assumption, a continually repeating assumption over years and years; yet zero proof.

 

[MattB]

One simple question with a direct answer- has California’s ban on lead ammo dramatically or measurably changed raptor lead levels with no other factors involved or caused? Has the “voluntary use of lead free” by nearly everyone in the Arizona strip dramatically and measurably changed raptor lead levels with no other factors involved or caused?

Again a I am not asking about “maybe”, “ I think”, “I feel”, “why not”, or any other nonsense emotional, illogical ploy. I am asking directly and plainly if the lead ban for hunting has had a measurable and direct impact on the raptors with no other factors involved? If so, please cite.

The fundamental flaw with that line of reasoning is it assumes compliance, which anecdotally seems to be low in CA. Ignoring the lack of enforcement and general resistance to government-mandated change, a significant issue is the lack of availability of compliant ammunition. The vast majority of ammo slots on the shelves at local retailers (many national chains) are for ammunition with lead core bullets. Mail ordering ammo from out of state is essentially prohibited (not illegal, but very complicated unless you have an FFL). Add to that the COVID-related supply chain issues. Many guys couldn't find compliant ammo if they tried and they aren't going to take the season off if they can't.

As a specific example, Turner's Outdoorsman is a CA-HQ'ed retailer that only has stores in CA and AZ. For 6.5CM, they list 11 different factory loads and only 3 are CA compliant. Of those 11, the only one currently in stock is not CA- compliant.

Rifle Ammo | Ammo

Turner’s Outdoorsman | Southern California's Fishing, Hunting & Shooting Headquarters Since 1971. Top Brands, Huge Selection. Fast Shipping - Easy Returns. Shop Online Now!

www.turners.com

Bottom line: one cannot assess the benefit of the lead ammunition ban simply based on tracking lead levels in raptors.

 

[Formidilosus]

I see your issue, OK, yes, I agree from that perspective. For me travel is travel, no matter how it gets there. If you have a splashy bullet that makes a lot of particles they get all over. They are not so much worried about mechanism, they are worried about outcome in relation to public health - if the lead gets somewhere it is there no matter how it got there.

And from that perspective I don’t have a terrible issue with it, however broad base it matters. If you shoot animals in the chest, and use the gutless method, and remove all bloodshot meat- you’re not getting lead in the meat.

You have posted about a million pics of wound cavities large enough to make me believe that lead particles are moving more than 3" through meat.

The lead doesn’t travel that far. The large wound cavities are from the temporary stretch cavity tearing, and will be significantly larger than the path that may contain small fragments.

 

[Formidilosus]

The fundamental flaw with that line of reasoning is it assumes compliance, which anecdotally seems to be low in CA. Ignoring the lack of enforcement and general resistance to government-mandated change, a significant issue is the lack of availability of compliant ammunition. The vast majority of ammo slots on the shelves at local retailers (many national chains) are for ammunition with lead core bullets. Mail ordering ammo from out of state is essentially prohibited (not illegal, but very complicated unless you have an FFL). Add to that the COVID-related supply chain issues. Many guys couldn't find compliant ammo if they tried and they aren't going to take the season off if they can't.

As a specific example, Turner's Outdoorsman is a CA-HQ'ed retailer that only has stores in CA and AZ. For 6.5CM, they list 11 different factory loads and only 3 are CA compliant. Of those 11, the only one currently in stock is not CA- compliant.

Rifle Ammo | Ammo

Turner’s Outdoorsman | Southern California's Fishing, Hunting & Shooting Headquarters Since 1971. Top Brands, Huge Selection. Fast Shipping - Easy Returns. Shop Online Now!

www.turners.com

Bottom line: one cannot assess the benefit of the lead ammunition ban simply based on tracking lead levels in raptors.

So you have zero evidence but are convinced of something?

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

The issue is stuff like the “1%.” Anybody who has ever looked at data knows that isn’t statistically significant, it’s within the margin of error in almost any study.

However, people that want hunting banned will look at it and claim the sky is falling and eagles are going to be extinct.

Your average mouth breathing citizen will look at a headline stating “Eagles being poisoned by hunter’s bullets”, then a lead ban is passed on the next ballot.

For me, it doesn’t come down to the cost of mono bullets, but we generally deer hunt in swamps and very thick brush. An animal that runs 50 yards may be very hard to find and recover, and lead bullets generally kill quicker than monos.

 

[roadrunner]

Coyotes and bears have different digestive systems than birds and are not as readily affected.

It is a problem in turkey vultures, no one cares about them compared to eagles or condors.

Lead Exposure in Free-Flying Turkey Vultures Is Associated with Big Game Hunting in California

Predatory and scavenging birds are at risk of lead exposure when they feed on animals injured or killed by lead ammunition. While lead ammunition has been banned from waterfowl hunting in North America for almost two decades, lead ammunition is still widely used for hunting big game and small...

journals.plos.org

Well....

 

[Bubblehide]

You can play the "correlation not causation" card all you want, but you have to look at the weight of evidence. Where is the evidence that the lead in raptors comes from water?

Actually you are looking at correlation. Where is there actually evidence that the source of the lead is from bullets. All your evidence is repeated conjecture and NOTHING more; yet you remain BLIND to that fact.

 

[MattB]

So you have zero evidence but are convinced of something?

My evidence is anecdotal based on feedback from local hunters in terms of what ammunition they hunt with and their (and my) challenges in being able to buy compliant ammunition. I live within miles of the boundary of the condor area which has been lead-free since the mid-2008 so we have been dealing with directly for a long time.

Do you have data that demonstrates a high level of compliance with the regulation? If so, I would be interested in seeing it. If that data does exist, I would also suggest one should determine whether hunters were asked questions the answers to which could be incriminating when considering the results.

 

[Bubblehide]

My evidence is anecdotal based on feedback from local hunters in terms of what ammunition they hunt with and their (and my) challenges in being able to buy compliant ammunition. I live within miles of the boundary of the condor area which has been lead-free since the mid-2008 so we have been dealing with directly for a long time.

Do you have data that demonstrates a high level of compliance with the regulation? If so, I would be interested in seeing it. If that data does exist, I would also suggest one should determine whether hunters were asked questions the answers to which could be incriminating when considering the results.

Do you have data on non-compliance?

 

[Formidilosus]

My evidence is anecdotal based on feedback from local hunters in terms of what ammunition they hunt with and their (and my) challenges in being able to buy compliant ammunition. I live within miles of the boundary of the condor area which has been lead-free since the mid-2008 so we have been dealing with directly for a long time.

Do you have data that demonstrates a high level of compliance with the regulation? If so, I would be interested in seeing it. If that data does exist, I would also suggest one should determine whether hunters were asked questions the answers to which could be incriminating when considering the results.

Why would I care about compliance for a regulation that was passed based on a lie?

 

[cubdriver84d]

From Finkelstein et al 2012 (they literally pulled lead fragments out of lead poisoned birds and watched lead poisoned birds feeding on carcasses of animals shot with lead bullets):

Directly linking an observed feeding and/or recovery of ingested ammunition fragment(s) from a lead-poisoned condor is uncommon, largely because condors can fly over 200 km and traverse their entire range in a single day (35), but their feeding episodes can last less than 1 h (36). Since 2007, in part because of increased efforts by condor biologists and veterinary staff, there have been six cases where a lead-containing metal fragment (or in one case, buckshot) was recovered from a lead-poisoned bird or a condor was observed feeding on a carcass that had been shot with lead-based ammunition. In all six of these cases, isotopic analysis showed that the fragments/ammunition and condor blood had highly similar (difference ≤ 0.22%) lead isotope ratios (207Pb/206Pb) (Fig. S3), establishing that the recovered lead-containing fragment (or ammunition from the carcass on which the bird was observed feeding) (22) was the cause of the lead poisoning.

 

[Bubblehide]

From Finkelstein et al 2012 (they literally pulled lead fragments out of lead poisoned birds and watched lead poisoned birds feeding on carcasses of animals shot with lead bullets):

Directly linking an observed feeding and/or recovery of ingested ammunition fragment(s) from a lead-poisoned condor is uncommon, largely because condors can fly over 200 km and traverse their entire range in a single day (35), but their feeding episodes can last less than 1 h (36). Since 2007, in part because of increased efforts by condor biologists and veterinary staff, there have been six cases where a lead-containing metal fragment (or in one case, buckshot) was recovered from a lead-poisoned bird or a condor was observed feeding on a carcass that had been shot with lead-based ammunition. In all six of these cases, isotopic analysis showed that the fragments/ammunition and condor blood had highly similar (difference ≤ 0.22%) lead isotope ratios (207Pb/206Pb) (Fig. S3), establishing that the recovered lead-containing fragment (or ammunition from the carcass on which the bird was observed feeding) (22) was the cause of the lead poisoning.

Page numbers?

 

[cubdriver84d]

Page numbers?

11451 right column in the pdf under the header: Direct evidence links lead-containing fragments/ammunition with lead- poisoned birds.

 

[Bubblehide]

11451 right column in the pdf under the header: Direct evidence links lead-containing fragments/ammunition with lead- poisoned birds.

I am looking at the actual study paper, (electronic version), so what page number(s)?

 

[Bubblehide]

Found it.
" Directly linking an observed feeding and/or recovery of ingested ammunition fragment(s) from a lead-poisoned condor is uncommon, largely because condors can fly over 200 km and traverse their entire range in a single day (35), but their feeding episodes can last less than 1 h (36). Since 2007, in part because of increased efforts by condor biologists and veterinary staff, there have been six cases where a lead-containing metal fragment (or in one case, buckshot) was recovered from a lead-poisoned bird or a condor was observed feeding on a carcass that had been shot with lead-based ammunition. In all six of these cases, isotopic analysis showed that the fragments/ammunition and condor blood had highly similar (difference ≤ 0.22%) lead isotope ratios (207Pb/206Pb) (Fig. S3), establishing that the recovered lead-containing fragment (or ammunition from the carcass on which the bird was observed feeding) (22) was the cause of the lead poisoning."

This actually only links one bird to lead poising from buckshot. The other fragments were not identified as buck shot or a bullet, just simply fragments, perhaps lead based paint? Furthermore, one birds exposure, proven to be from ammunition, is not significant in a scientific basis. The fact is that they rely on isotope identification, which is exceptionally unreliable in identifying the actual source.

Again, since the lead ban in Ca (this is a Ca study), we should be seeing a significant drop in lead poisonings events "within the feathers" of condors; Plenty of time has elapsed to exhibit that, yet they present zero evidence of any reduction.