Wolf pack in CO

[Beendare]

The claim that ,"I get more elk tags now" insinuating its due to wolves...is disingenuous. Ridiculous.

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Oregon Wolves haven't really acquired a taste for elk meat. What they have done as pointed out earlier is move some of the herds to the more open agriculture/timber land interface areas.
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Re Bobs post #43 with chart.....This chart means little without the wolf population info, here;
Breeding pairs in Oregon

Then there is a map
HERE


What becomes obvious from these facts is that there are not a lot of wolves in Oregon YET and they are new to evaluating the impact. Time will tell. Seems to me the increased tags in some areas are due to; 1) the previously mentioned elk change of habitat, and 2) the F&G deciding to decrease the elk herds. Those implying a correlation to 'More wolves = more tags" is using flawed logic.



The chart more directly related to Wolves v Elk is HERE from the YNP site showing the effect of wolves on elk population in Yellowstone- and its staggering.

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[87TT]

Wayyyyy wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy wayyy more wolves than that in Central Idaho.

Absolutely

 

[87TT]

Still waiting ……...……….…...……. cricket cricket.

 

[BuzzH]

The claim that ,"I get more elk tags now" insinuating its due to wolves...is disingenuous. Ridiculous.

____________



Re Bobs post #43 with chart.....This chart means little without the wolf population info, here;
Breeding pairs in Oregon

Then there is a map
HERE


What becomes obvious from these facts is that there are not a lot of wolves in Oregon YET and they are new to evaluating the impact. Time will tell. Seems to me the increased tags in some areas are due to; 1) the previously mentioned elk change of habitat, and 2) the F&G deciding to decrease the elk herds. Those implying a correlation to 'More wolves = more tags" is using flawed logic.



The chart more directly related to Wolves v Elk is HERE from the YNP site showing the effect of wolves on elk population in Yellowstone- and its staggering.

....

That chart in your Yellowstone link is sure interesting...what was killing off all the elk from 1961-1971? Wasn't wolves...and the winters weren't that bad in that time frame either.

Once again, your chart doesn't show why elk declined in Yellowstone, and there were a lot of things that changed, and some things that didn't, that were also major factors in the decline.

Care to talk about those?

The only person making a correlation between more wolves equating to more elk tags is you. As WB pointed out, elk have increased in number in spite of wolves, not because of them. Big difference.

 

[slick]

Just because you don’t like the answer we’ve given doesn’t mean it isn’t an answer.

Edit: response would be a better word than answer


As far as Beendare’s post. I’ve never implied nor said wolves = more elk. But there is copious amounts of opportunity out there, and to say otherwise would be wrong.

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[87TT]

Haven't heard an answer yet. Just that you want them and you think they have a right to. That's not an answer.

 

[wapitibob]

"Wanting them" is a long way from understanding how they got here and how they're managed under present Federal law.
I haven't seen anybody say "I want(ed) them introduced"

 

[ndbuck09]

The Fact Sheet was written prior to 2000...looks to be around 1998 and the populations referenced in the article were probably pretty accurate.

I saw that BuzzH had quoted my post and I felt all warm and tingly I definitely didn't want that stat to sit uncontested so thank you for bringing light to the fact that wolf reproduction is swift and 20 years on from that it's out of control.

 

[BuzzH]

I saw that BuzzH had quoted my post and I felt all warm and tingly I definitely didn't want that stat to sit uncontested so thank you for bringing light to the fact that wolf reproduction is swift and 20 years on from that it's out of control.

Get off the computer and your ass...lots of season left to control them.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

I spent 03-middle 07 working 3 out 4 weeks a month in CO. It was a great place. Went back to visit some friends in 18. The liberal folks on the front range have ruined that state. Reintroduction will pass and dont be surprised when that $16million in extra rev from license sales is used to do it...These 2 issues coming up at the same time isn't just random timing..You gotta give the liberal folks credit they infiltrate every part and level of govt and they can play the long game.

 

[mtnbiker208]

And tell it to the woodland caribou in Idaho. Oh wait they're extinct now.

you can't blame the wolf on that one. the caribou where decling big time before the wolf showed up. But you can blame cougars, and fires that changed here habitat. this one is very close and dear to me.

 

[slick]

Haven't heard an answer yet. Just that you want them and you think they have a right to. That's not an answer.

You’re only going to accept a response that fits into your perceived idea of “good”.

I’ve given you my response/answer, and you are unwilling to accept it. Your problem, not mine.


Back to the topic: I don’t believe they should be making any concerted efforts of bringing wolves from outside of CO and dropping them off in CO. If they move there on their own accord, then deal with them under Federal Law like the rest of the states have had to do in some capacity or another. I would like to think CO has been preparing for this for the last decade, and if they haven’t, shame on them for not being proactive.

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[WV Mountaineer]

Like I said, you aren't interested in an intelligent discussion about the issue, intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer, from your post above.

That post of yours is very typical, full of raw emotion and lacking in facts and substance.

This coming from a guy that is as personable as a chainsaw revved up.

 

[mtluckydan]

Interesting that only the facts that Buzzh & Slick present are accurate & the rest of us dumb f**ks don't count. My formal education is specific to wildlife management & my entire life has been spent hunting, guiding & fishing. I'm not bragging & not downplaying anyone else's opinion. It doesn't seem to matter to them whether discussing the drastic decline in the Yellowstone elk herd, the moose population in the Yaak, or the whitetail population & rapid decline in population/ harvest in the Swan...it's everything but wolves...Hell northwest Montana hunting has sucked for 50-60 years according to Buzzh. The fact is I could post multiple links and you guys would just say those guys wear tinfoil hats...how can anyone that's intelligent believe anything they say. Buzzh & Slick are the only smart guys on here & they fill their 3 elk tags every year...the rest of you guys suck as hunters...especially you Ross...and their linked articles are the only facts that aren't conspiracy theories. If you somehow think a person can't be emotional about a subject & still interpret facts you are mistaken. Ross has some pretty solid historical elk harvest data & some pretty convincing trail cam photos that lead me to believe he knows how to interpret what's happening in his neck of the woods. Yet you dismiss him & his opinion...Ross must be getting old cause elk populations are on the rise...you just need to drive to Arizona...I'm too emotional & I just can't carry on a conversation...I guess only people writing scientific papers funded by the government writing about subjects funded by the government...wolf reintroduction...and coming to conclusions to ensure more funding by the government count as facts...hope I didn't confuse you & I'm sure I didn't change your opinion.

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[WV Mountaineer]

That may be your "observation" in CO and I may even agree with your observation there. But that isn't the case in WY, MT, and ID...and if you really want to find out for yourself, look at the elk population data available in those states. Compare elk numbers prior to and after wolf reintroduction and compare opportunity at multiple elk in those states before and after reintroduction.

Wolves have not taken hunting opportunities away, in fact, opportunity has greatly increased since reintroduction in MT, ID, and WY...just a straight up fact.

Don't deflect. You earlier implied that there were more elk post reintroduction. Now you say opportunity.

 

[Mike7]

In 2007 you could not go out into the woods in Northeastern WA (the Chewelah, Deer Park, NewPort triangle area particularly) without seeing moose sign everywhere and at least 1 or many moose on every trip as well as a set of lion tracks in the winter on every trip. The moose also are visibly loaded with ticks at this time and doing great seemingly.

Fast forward 5 years and Fish & Wildlife is starting to try to count moose, and from "as best as they can tell" the moose population is significantly declining. Areas previously loaded with moose sign, are now suddenly full of wolf sign, as the population in neighboring ID is overflowing into WA.

But somehow, we are told that climate change with potentially a 1/10 th of 1 degree increase recently is the primary culprit causing more ticks, altered habitat, etc. leading to the moose's decline in NE WA. What a bunch of bull crap.

I do agree with Buzz on one thing. Typically trends in nature have a multi-factorial component (accuracy of surveys, politics, habitat, predation, etc.). But a really, really big factor is wolves.

My prediction... Colorado will loose it's moose population due to climate change, but only just as soon as wolves have saturated the areas of good moose habitat... and interestingly long before the state has reached the unobtainable soon to be proposed goal of enough documented breeding pairs of wolves in every single region of the state, which will be required before any wolf control can occur.

 

[accountantsanonymous]

 

[BuzzH]

Don't deflect. You earlier implied that there were more elk post reintroduction. Now you say opportunity.

Here's what I know...in 1995 Wyoming killed 17,695 elk with a total population of 85,000, in 2013 Wyoming killed 25,968 elk with a total population of 101,000 post harvest.

Population estimates for 2018 post harvest was 104,800 prior to calves hitting the ground. In 2018 harvest was 25,091 elk.

Wyoming has been killing around 25K elk a year for the last 10 years or so with an overall success rate of over 40%. Pretty good considering how bad some people suck at hunting elk.

Pretty good for a State where the wolves ate all the elk...don't you think?

 

[BuzzH]

How about Montana?

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: Montana Statewide Elk Management

History of Montana Elk Management and background information on plan creation process.

fwp.mt.gov

2010....94,304 observed elk.
2019.....134,557 observed elk.

Wolves ate them all...

Oh, and according to the EMP, that Debby Barrett's (R) Dillon bill requiring elk to be killed by legislation/law down to the levels defined in the EMP (92,138 total elk)...is the reason Montana will be upping tags to 3 per hunter this season.

More elk, more tags, more opportunity...funny, I thought the wolves ate all the elk?

 

[slick]

But that’s all government data, there’s obviously an agenda at play, or their counts are total BS Buzz, everyone knows that.


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