Will Wild Birds Teach my Dog?

[RuggedYogi]

Looking for some advice from the more experienced bird hunters regarding steadiness to wild flush. Today will be day 12 of hunting dusky grouse in the mountains this season.

Buck, my GWP, is a couple months shy of two. This is his second hunting season, but his first "real" season having gone through whoah training and force fetch over the last year. His drive is high and he can find the birds. My current issue is his lack of steadiness to wild flushing. Training with pigeons, steady to wild flush. I took him to a hunt club to train with pen raised roosters, he pointed and was steady to wing/shot.

I take him out to the grouse woods, unsteady! I know he is finding birds because he has quite the tell, he runs around chasing them and barking like crazy when he finds them. I can get him to stop once I hear him barking, although sometimes it takes quite a bit more stimulation than it would when he isn't excited. If I can see him, I can get him to whoah with a verbal command. I have shot some grouse over him by getting him to whoah and shooting birds that hadn't flushed yet. He holds steady and makes a good retrieve in this case.

I am just wondering what I can do, if anything, to get him steady to wild flush on wild birds. I have heard from others that wild birds will teach him more than any training scenario. Do I just let him keep busting birds until he figures it out and chalk it up to him still being a young pup? Keep him closer so I can make sure that I can stop him when they flush? (hesitant to do this as I like the fact that he is finding them 200+ yards away). Any input is welcome, thanks!

 

[jmez]

Are you using a belly collar on him?

 

[RuggedYogi]

Are you using a belly collar on him?

Intermittently. I’ve noticed that if I hunt him hard his skin gets irritated where the prongs rest on his skin. It definitely stops him when I do use it.

 

[30338]

Early on in his life/training was he allowed to catch pen raised birds? Sounds like he is just running around flushing birds all over vs pointing at all. Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[molliesmaster]

Is he pointing the birds at all?

Hard to do much in a wooded area where you can't see the whole story. Not sure how thick the terrain is but you may be better off trying to convince him to hunt a little closer to you so you can see what is happening.

He's still young, first real hunting season. Very good chance he will work this out.

 

[codym]

Stop to flush is huge. You need to get him to stop any where at any time. Tons of repetition with launchers and pigeons is good. Don’t correct behavior you can’t see. If you see him put up a bird make him stop to flush until you physically go release. Under no circumstances should you kill a bird for him he doesn’t handle correctly at this point. I have seen dogs that figured out if they flushed a bird but didn’t chase the guy with the gun still killed for them so they essentially became flushers that were steady on the wing. This is the biggest mistake short of improper gun into, don’t shoot birds the dog doesn’t point and hold point on. The dead bird is the reward.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Great thread......Im in a similar boat w a 6mo DD. So many varying opinions "Bury them in Wild Birds"....."Long Line and bird launchers"....."Get ahold of some Homers".

 

[Dos Perros]

Do I just let him keep busting birds until he figures it out and chalk it up to him still being a young pup?

Yes. He needs an 'ah ha' moment. Then he should be mostly reliable but will still regress from time to time. Do not shoot birds he bumps. Only shoot the ones he handles correctly. He will figure it out. Just takes time and bird contacts.

 

[BCDJR]

I think what you’re finding is that the wild birds don’t take a lot of noise to make them fly. Your planted birds are usually dizzy and will sit. They are used to humans feeding them. I also understand your issues being in a thick area and not seeing your dogs behavior. The belly collar just helps him not blink on birds when you need the neck collar for other corrections. Once he as been fully conditioned on the collar stimulations you should not need the belly. If he doesn’t figure it out pretty fast on the wild birds you might want to go back to your pen birds and see how he works.

 

[codym]

Great thread......Im in a similar boat w a 6mo DD. So many varying opinions "Bury them in Wild Birds"....."Long Line and bird launchers"....."Get ahold of some Homers".

If you have the wild birds that’s always great. The problem is setting up scenarios you can control with wild birds. Again I’ve trained many dozens of field trial and wild bird dogs and hunted over hundreds. Most steadiness issues come up from allowing dogs to catch pen raised birds or the inability of the owner to not shoot birds the dog doesn’t handle appropriately. The dogs goal is to catch the bird. If he learns he can “catch” birds by flushing them it’s a hard pattern to break. He needs to learn he must point them, hold said point and allow you to flush and shoot the bird in order to “catch” it them. This is the only way he gets his reward

 

[jmez]

Birds make a dog. Wild birds even more so. The more you can get him into the better. Not uncommon for a high drive dog to be broke on liberated birds and chase in the field. You are going from a completely controlled situation to completely unconrolled as far as the dog goes.

You can let him figure it out on his own, some never will. He has to make the connection that the only way for him to get the bird, is for you to get it first. High drive dogs have a lot harder time making the connection.

I never use a neck collar around birds. You say you can get him to stop when he's running around barking, I assume you are hitting him on the neck? I would use the belly collar. Neck collar means hey, you are in trouble, you are not listening, you do what I say when I say it. Belly collar means stop/whoa, that's it. Yes he's going to get rubbed/rash/irritated skin from it. You just need to live with that. Other issue is you need to be able to see what he's doing. Either going to have to reel him in or hunt more open country and keep eyes on him all the time.

Only stim enough to make him stop, at this point you don't need to cook him. If it takes a few steps that is fine. Best advice I have ever been given, by a guy in the bird dog hall of fame, your dog has not made a mistake until there is a bird in the air. If he's smelling them and then just charging in he'll be harder to break than if he is flash pointing or holding for a few seconds then jumping in. You need to be able to read the dog, as soon as you see him birdy get your finger on the button. Before the bird has cleared the grass you need to shock him and tell him whoa. You make him stay there until you get there. Pick him up and take him back to where you first noticed him birdy, set him down, style him up, then walk out in front of him as if you are flushing. Get our there 30 40 yards, keep eyes on him, if he moves nick him and tell him whoa. If he takes a step, go back pick him up, put him back where he was and repeat. Do this every time he knocks a bird, even if the wind is wrong and he didn't smell a bird and it gets up when he runs past. When you have walked around in front of him, go back, pet/praise him and then release him. He can't leave until you physically release him.

When out hunting or traning if a bird flushes wild anywhere and you know he sees it, nick him with the belly collar and whoa him. He needs to stand there and not move until you release him. Wait until the bird is out of sight before you release him. Whereever he is, you need to keep him there until you walk to him and release him.

He will progress from just jumping in to flash pointing to holding for longer amounts of time. Eventually he will point and stay there.

You will need discipline as well. You want to break your dog or shoot birds? You can't do both. You ONLY shoot a bird he has pointed correctly with no corrections. If he gets birds up, you get him whoaed, then additional birds get up don't shoot them. He didn't do it correctly and you are rewarding him. There is only one correct way. He smells them, points, holds that point to whatever you deem acceptable, wing, wing and shot, wing shot and fall. What ever you decide he has to do that correctly every time or you don't shoot the bird. If you are hunting and a bird flushes wild don't shoot it, stop him make him watch it fly away and then you go release him. You only shoot what he points correctly this entire season. Then work the entire off season on the same thing.

 

[codym]

Birds make a dog. Wild birds even more so. The more you can get him into the better. Not uncommon for a high drive dog to be broke on liberated birds and chase in the field. You are going from a completely controlled situation to completely unconrolled as far as the dog goes.

You can let him figure it out on his own, some never will. He has to make the connection that the only way for him to get the bird, is for you to get it first. High drive dogs have a lot harder time making the connection.

I never use a neck collar around birds. You say you can get him to stop when he's running around barking, I assume you are hitting him on the neck? I would use the belly collar. Neck collar means hey, you are in trouble, you are not listening, you do what I say when I say it. Belly collar means stop/whoa, that's it. Yes he's going to get rubbed/rash/irritated skin from it. You just need to live with that. Other issue is you need to be able to see what he's doing. Either going to have to reel him in or hunt more open country and keep eyes on him all the time.

Only stim enough to make him stop, at this point you don't need to cook him. If it takes a few steps that is fine. Best advice I have ever been given, by a guy in the bird dog hall of fame, your dog has not made a mistake until there is a bird in the air. If he's smelling them and then just charging in he'll be harder to break than if he is flash pointing or holding for a few seconds then jumping in. You need to be able to read the dog, as soon as you see him birdy get your finger on the button. Before the bird has cleared the grass you need to shock him and tell him whoa. You make him stay there until you get there. Pick him up and take him back to where you first noticed him birdy, set him down, style him up, then walk out in front of him as if you are flushing. Get our there 30 40 yards, keep eyes on him, if he moves nick him and tell him whoa. If he takes a step, go back pick him up, put him back where he was and repeat. Do this every time he knocks a bird, even if the wind is wrong and he didn't smell a bird and it gets up when he runs past. When you have walked around in front of him, go back, pet/praise him and then release him. He can't leave until you physically release him.

When out hunting or traning if a bird flushes wild anywhere and you know he sees it, nick him with the belly collar and whoa him. He needs to stand there and not move until you release him. Wait until the bird is out of sight before you release him. Whereever he is, you need to keep him there until you walk to him and release him.

He will progress from just jumping in to flash pointing to holding for longer amounts of time. Eventually he will point and stay there.

You will need discipline as well. You want to break your dog or shoot birds? You can't do both. You ONLY shoot a bird he has pointed correctly with no corrections. If he gets birds up, you get him whoaed, then additional birds get up don't shoot them. He didn't do it correctly and you are rewarding him. There is only one correct way. He smells them, points, holds that point to whatever you deem acceptable, wing, wing and shot, wing shot and fall. What ever you decide he has to do that correctly every time or you don't shoot the bird. If you are hunting and a bird flushes wild don't shoot it, stop him make him watch it fly away and then you go release him. You only shoot what he points correctly this entire season. Then work the entire off season on the same thing.

This is it

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

If you have the wild birds that’s always great. The problem is setting up scenarios you can control with wild birds. Again I’ve trained many dozens of field trial and wild bird dogs and hunted over hundreds. Most steadiness issues come up from allowing dogs to catch pen raised birds or the inability of the owner to not shoot birds the dog doesn’t handle appropriately. The dogs goal is to catch the bird. If he learns he can “catch” birds by flushing them it’s a hard pattern to break. He needs to learn he must point them, hold said point and allow you to flush and shoot the bird in order to “catch” it them. This is the only way he gets his reward

Dont wanna steal this guys thread. But we have free range chickens. Think my pup is up to "catching" maybe 7? Snuck out the house while I was out hunting and wife "watching" and caught and ate half a chicken last week. Caught one pen raised chukar last month.

Had a TON of natural point as a 8 wk to 16 wks pup. I have a ton of UnTraining ahead of me. "points" shot birds prior to retrieve...lol

My mentors strongly suggest AGAINST Homers and Launchers. I am inclined to NOT listen to them and control the scenario before it gets worse.

Former Deming-ite....lotta good quail arroyos out S of Gage....hint

 

[RuggedYogi]

Early on in his life/training was he allowed to catch pen raised birds? Sounds like he is just running around flushing birds all over vs pointing at all. Am I understanding that correctly?

He was never allowed to catch pen raised birds. When he was 8 months old, he caught a young grouse while hiking, that was a one time event.

Right now, running around flushing birds and not pointing would be an accurate description. He points pigeons during training. I have taken him to a hunt club once and he pointed the pen raised birds there as well.

 

[RuggedYogi]

Is he pointing the birds at all?

Hard to do much in a wooded area where you can't see the whole story. Not sure how thick the terrain is but you may be better off trying to convince him to hunt a little closer to you so you can see what is happening.

He's still young, first real hunting season. Very good chance he will work this out.

The grouse are in thick and steep terrain where I live, it’s typically hard to see him once he’s out past 40-50 yards.

I have a ND trip planned later this month, I should be able to see what he’s doing and control the situation a little better there.

 

[RuggedYogi]

Stop to flush is huge. You need to get him to stop any where at any time. Tons of repetition with launchers and pigeons is good. Don’t correct behavior you can’t see. If you see him put up a bird make him stop to flush until you physically go release. Under no circumstances should you kill a bird for him he doesn’t handle correctly at this point. I have seen dogs that figured out if they flushed a bird but didn’t chase the guy with the gun still killed for them so they essentially became flushers that were steady on the wing. This is the biggest mistake short of improper gun into, don’t shoot birds the dog doesn’t point and hold point on. The dead bird is the reward.

Thanks for the advice. What about multiple birds in a covey? He busts one but there are still more on the ground and he stops to the flush of the first bird, assuming it’s okay to shoot additional birds from a covey in this situation?

 

[jmez]

Thanks for the advice. What about multiple birds in a covey? He busts one but there are still more on the ground and he stops to the flush of the first bird, assuming it’s okay to shoot additional birds from a covey in this situation?

NO!!!!!

 

[codym]

Thanks for the advice. What about multiple birds in a covey? He busts one but there are still more on the ground and he stops to the flush of the first bird, assuming it’s okay to shoot additional birds from a covey in this situation?

No don’t kill anything over him that isn’t perfect. It’s an exercise in patience but it’s worth it in the end. The first couple years of a pointing dogs life are critical. If I kill one or two wild birds over a dog in the first couple seasons is excellent. Just be ok with that and get him to as many situations as possible. Eventually he will figure out what he needs to do to finally get a bird in his mouth and when that light comes on it’s like nothing else in hunting

 

[topsnteal]

Too much agreement in this thread - gonna have to stir up the snakes with a couple thoughts:

1. ND is exactly what you need, get up where you can see that dog, should be super useful. If you can’t see what the dog is doing in the woods, then best case you’re shocking him off a chase - you certainly don’t have the timing to work on steadiness.

2. I disagree with the consensus on shooting late flushes out of a single covey (in limited situations).

In my view stopping to a flush and steadiness through a flush are two completely different behaviors. To me, a true stop to flush occurs when the dog barrels downwind into birds he hasn’t smelled and stands on the first bird that gets up. If that dog watches one or two birds get up (especially sharptails), then allows me to walk all the way in front of him and flush and another bird gets up, I shoot that bird (or at least at it) 100% of the time. If another bird does not get up, I still walk through that rep like there is birds there, then after kicking brush for a minute I fire my gun to release the dog. I consider a true, clean, stop-to-flush a perfect rep the same way a pointed bird is and I reward it the same way.

A dog that doesn’t let me get in front of him is a totally different story, as is a dog who creeps in and busts birds.

Running birds are going to be a major problem for you right now and you should avoid pheasants like the plague while you’re up there.

Last point - I crush birds over young dogs - be mindful of what you are teaching them on every rep, and have a gunner so you can focus on handling when possible, but you aren’t going to ruin a dog shooting a bird as long as he didn’t intentionally bust it and his feet are stopped.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Blue grouse are hard birds for a pointing dog.

Pheasant and sharptails in open country would be a lot easier for you and your dog to week this out.

You’ve been given good advice. I’ve started
two Drahthaars without using pigeon one. I just hunted them on wild birds and didn’t shoot birds they didn’t point. You can work on steadiness to shot and flush after the dog has developed a steady point in wild birds that are running.