Wilderness Meat Care Thread

[Aron Snyder]

Yep, they copied that from Larry too (just like the game bags).

 

[Daniel_M]

Yeah, but who packs a spray bottle and citric acid with them in the backcountry?

FOr me I see it as more of a solution once you get the meat back to base camp/pickup.

I pack one in my kill kit.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Hey fellas, thanks for caring so much about game meat care. Yeah, Caribou Gear has copied everything they possibly can to make a buck, even claims of "coming up with the idea of synthetic game bags technology"...what a joke.

I believe Aron and Bitterroot have nailed the best advice, and those articles of mine help also.

Some questions about spray bottles and citric acid app, as well as bone-in vs debone and meat immersion therapy have been raised. Here are a few more thoughts:

1. Backpack-style remote hunting requires a modification of Alaska techniques. In Alaska, remote hunts are the norm, requiring long periods of meat care in the field during transport. Aron is a strong supporter of de-boning, for good reason. Elk bones weigh about 18 lbs total, and that makes sense to remove if travelling with meat on your back up and over hillcountry. He's also diligent with hands on techniques to prevent issues with spoilage threats.

2. Meat immersion is best approached during the first 24 hours post harvest, since core temps range from 101 degrees and 103 degrees (extremophil and thermophil bacteria ideal temps). The goal within the first 24 hours is to quickly reduce deep-tissue temps as low as possible without freezing (34-50 degrees F). If your hunt is less than 5 days long from kill time to road access, submerge game within a trash bag under "moving current". Streams with flow cool meat 25X faster than air current. If lake water is used, pre-treat your meat with citric acid to help stave off giardia and other stagnant bacteria. Rivers have cooler temps than lake water, usually averaging 5 degree F lower. The faster the water the cooler and quicker your meat will reduce core temps. I prefer to immerse meat during daytime and hang at night to foster drying. Or, if travelling by daytime, immerse at night and move out during the day. Use your judgment in your own scenario, as long as you concentrate on lowering core temps to well below 50 degrees within the first 30 hours post harvest.

3. Citric acid use is great for the reasons we've covered. Remember that re-dosing is necessary every other day, and if immersed meat will condensate and wash away your acid at the surface, so daily treatment will also help. If you don't want to take a spray bottle afield, take citric acid powder and use a bandana to apply the acid mixture by making solution in your cooking pot or water bottle, then soak and apply water from the bandana...as long as it the acid gets applied, the delivery method is irrelevant. 1 oz powder to 1 qt water will suffice.

4. Bone-in theory on benefits: Leg bones attached provide leverage when handling heavy qtrs, and if rafting or packrafting...leg bones help keep meat balanced on the watercraft. Bone-in also adds weight that you'll have to deal with, but reduces the surface area to require trimming at home. Bone-in meat saves about 25% more meat by the end, sometimes as much as 40% depending on handling in the field and how dry you kept the meat. Again, your personal situation will dictate your technique.

5. Citric acid affects surface color: If you notice your game turning gray or weird shades of pasty-dark...this is a result of the effects of citric acid. trimming will remove unsightly color changes at the surface, perfectly normal affects of citric acid.

6. Bacteria threats come in two major stages: 1) Bone sour results from the inside out, starting at the bone or core. These bacteria are anaerobic (thrive without oxygen) and results from core heat greater than 85 degrees, especially within the first 36 hours. Meat appears fine at the surface, but when you cut into it, odor changes smell putrefied...bone sour and meat turns green and iridescent. Quick dismemberment off the carcass and meat immersion are the best actions; 2) surface bacterial invasion results from handling actions (or inactions). Poop, dirt, urine, bile, contaminated hair, and absorption odors from fuel, exhaust from wheelers, or other sources. These bacteria are aerobic (require oxygen, high pH, high temps, and moisture to thrive). These are the easiest forms to control by handling techniques. Remember clean, cool, and dry will help reduce the invasion. Citric acid lowers pH at the surface and retards bacterial growth. Clean dismemberment and handling reduces the initial doses of bacterial sources, which help you in the long run. Keeping meat dry retards bacterial environments and reduces invasion. Air circulation helps dry meat. hanging qtrs fosters blood vessel drainage (remember veins and arteries hold blood that will spoil and become bacterial spoilage, and they run up and down the legs, so hanging allows this fluid to drain. hanging for 24 hours is a good idea for gravitational assistance, but if I had to choose between hanging and immersion....sink it for cooling properties and hang as often as you can.

7. Meat separation and game bag sizes: the less dense your meat bags are the better for cooling deep tissue areas. Separate meat into many small bags if possible so that air reaches more surface and allows trapped heat to dissolve.

That's probably more info that any of you wanted, but hope it helps. Holler with more questions if I missed anything.

Larry

 

[Matt Cashell]

Thanks so much Larry!

You seem to have answered some of my lingering questions.

So, if I understand you right, it is best to use immersion for the quick initial cooling, then citric and dry hanging?

Would you immerse again if the temps get higher?

We kept the bone in on our moose, but were lucky with cold overnight temps to help with quick and complete cooling. We never immersed the meat, and I am actually quite shocked just how well it kept for so long, and in varying temps. We did use liberal amounts of concentrated citric solution. My partners used your bags, and I used standard "Alaskan" bags, because I could not get yours delivered in time. Your bags were so noticeably superior, it wasn't funny. I won't make that mistake again!

Your advice really helped us aovid problems, and excessive expense. Thank you.

 

[Whisky]

Thanks Larry for the added info...

Do you sell the small spray bottles and the "good" citric acid powder? I ordered some game bags off your site yesterday and if you do sell them items, feel free to throw them in on my order and charge me whatever. If you don't sell them, or the bags have shipped already, no biggie...

Thanks
Adam

 

[Slim Jim]

Thanks for the info Larry

 

[wapitibob]

Thanks for the info, both Aron and Larry.

 

[fillthefreezer]

very much appreciate all there extensive knowledge shared here

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Bitterroot, yes you got it on the immersion, then citric acid and hang dry. The only thing I can add is to take a meat thermometer (grocery store model no batteries) and monitor your deep tissue temps twice daily. If an when (after initial cooling via cool night or immersion therapy) meat temps climb higher than 50 degrees for extended periods, consider immersion if available. Remember that common spoilage bacteria requires a source bacteria (initial dose threat like dirt, urine, bile, or poop) pH higher than 5.0 pH to thrive, temperatures higher than 50 degrees to proliferate, moisture to grow, and time to spread. If and when you break any of these chain reactions, bacterial stability is interrupted and your spoilage threat decreases.

If an when core temps climb higher than 50 degrees, i pay closer attention and try to cool by air circulation and shade. When temps climb closer to 60 degrees, i get nervous and become diligent with hands on practice by immersion for 8-12 hours in a cool shaded stream with flowing water. That should be enough to control core temps. Once again, deep tissue temps will warn you what's happening with threats...apply hands on skills to match your scenario.

Low cost sources for spray bottles: Your local one-stop shopping center like Walmart or Fred Myer. Look in the travel personal hygiene areas where soap and toothpaste are located. You'll find cheap small spray bottles here.

Lowest cost citric acid source: Google food grade citric acid and buy a 1-lb bottle of powder (not crystal) citric acid. This bottle will last you years. Also, check your local feed store (for horses and dog supplies). Farmers mix citric acid with animal feed commonly, and they usually sell citric acid powder by the half-pound.

These two sources are cheaper than guys like me sell it commercially to hunters.

LB

 

[Larry Bartlett]

One last note about common sources of spoilage threats:

Blood shot areas around wounds and bullet tracts are the most common points of concern. Adequate trim wound tunnels and remove all damaged tissue until the area looks like a surgeon was performing surgery on a wounded soldier. Clean meat is clean meat. Wound tunnels contain bile, grass, hair, blood shocked meat, and tiny shrapnel (copper and lead). All that shit needs to be removed ASAP to avoid source contamination and ideal breeding grounds for bacteria. These wounds are typically deep tissue tracts that carry bacteria through the meat, so you'll have to remove the entire bullet route and damaged tissue. This is commonly missed by hunters, but it will effect your entire shoulder. Remember to also extract any damaged bone fragments around the shoulder blade or leg bone...ribs too.

later

 

[ozyclint]

if you are blessed with low temps like you guys are it makes it easier. low temp is the key. how do you southern guys do it where there is heat?
try saving 1000lbs of water buffulo meat in the middle of arnhemland by yourself with 90+ degree temps. you just can't do it.
some great info here though thanks.

you might as well just pack it out though with the amount of constant tending to turning, immersing, spraying, etc, there wouldn't be much time for more hunting, at least not near all your meat.

 

[blb078]

Couldn't you just keep the meat in a stream while in a trashbag until you need to head out instead of managing it while hanging it? Assuming you have a stream close by?

 

[Aron Snyder]

I may have made things sound more complicated than I should have, but that's exactly what I do. Larry does things a bit differently, but he faces different obstacles in Alaska than i do in the lower 48. I just make sure and check on it as much as possible. It's never been an issue or taken away from hunting time.

Couldn't you just keep the meat in a stream while in a trashbag until you need to head out instead of managing it while hanging it? Assuming you have a stream close by?

 

[noroads]

Very good info that doesn't get covered often. Thanks Larry and Aron! I learned a lot more about meat care and the science behind it. - Adam

 

[huntwest]

Thanks for sharing some of your time and info on game care Larry. I just placed an order for some game bags from you. I think it was time to replace the old heavy canvas bags with something modern.

 

[Trout bum]

Helpful info in this thread. Thanks!

 

[bluestone]

Guides in BC when I have taken moose have used finely ground pepper immediately upon field dressing, covering all exposed surfaces, to repel flies, bees and the like. It seemed totally effective. We always use gutless method and bone-in. (I think the bone-in is a requirement.) The quarters are then hung, and as soon as possible flown out and hung in a cooler. Has anyone else heard of or used the pepper coating? Or other methods?

 

[Ray]

The pepper method has been around since there has been pepper at hand.

I've never seen it actually work though. There was always other meat protection methods being used at the same time. I know that pepper and cheap cheese cloth bags equals fly eggs on your meat. Mom and dad went back to sewn bed sheets after that.

 

[actionshooter]

Several years ago I killed a good Caribou Bull in the velvet, 1st week of Sept. It stayed in the field for 9 days during moderate temps and then 2 days home.
I covered the rack with pepper and the taxi was able to save the velvet. I don't know if the pepper was the reason it didn't get covered in maggots/ flys, but it sure didn't hurt!

 

[sneek-ee]

I've got a question not only about preserving the meat, but now the hide.
I'm curious if the citric acid can be sprayed on the hide.. Say you cape the animal, how do you save the cape in summer temps when you aren't headed out for a couple more days? I lost my cape this past year because of maggots getting into it. I know getting it peeled off the face completely is important. then probably drying it out as quick as you can??
Also, how about the velvet?? a few days to go, and you want to save the velvet in the field. Can you spray citric acid on it? Would that affect when you put on the velvettan when you got home?