Wildcats and necking down

[WKR]

I'm going from a .277 to .257 inside diameter with a redding type S full length bushing die. Attempting to neck down in one step is doable but im creating a donut. Is the donut avoidable? Maybe if I went to a two step neck down that would alleviate some of that brass being moved all at once?

Also I'd prefer to size further down the neck but with the bushing die im not sure that I can

Working on my first legitimate wildcat and need a little direction from those who have done it before

 

[WKR]

 

[T_Widdy]

If that’s 277 fury, or has an 30° shoulder Order a 25wssm resize die and just adjust for correct depth. After your close to the correct od like in your picture


I use a neck sizing die on most of my wildcats for the initial neck down. I also build my own bushings that are tapered to start then build one with very little radius for the final pass.

I use a gauge pin mandrel die from porters machine to help with the initial donut after necking down.

After they are fire formed I use the sac bushings they claim to have a .0005 taper at the base and seem to help with donuts.

If you can get them to chamber they will fire form out. Use a lighter charge and cheap bullets for first fire form.

​

 

[Jeff_Gibbons]

FWIW, I recently sized Norma .270 to 25-06 using fl die and got similar. Case cycled so ran medium pressure forming load and it disappeared.

 

[BBob]

The problem in your case is that Redding bushing dies do not size all the way to the shoulder. They’ve been like that forever.

21st Century makes this tool. There have been others. I have something that this was modeled after but they aren’t made anymore.

Neck Sizing Inserts

We are excited to introduce the 21st Century Innovation Neck Sizing Dies. Unlike traditional bushing dies these dies utilize a special interchangeable black nitride coated stainless steel die insert that will size down to the neck-shoulder junction of the case. The die insert is placed into the...

21stcenturyinnovation.com

 

[crich]

I'm going from a .277 to .257 inside diameter with a redding type S full length bushing die. Attempting to neck down in one step is doable but im creating a donut. Is the donut avoidable? Maybe if I went to a two step neck down that would alleviate some of that brass being moved all at once?

Also I'd prefer to size further down the neck but with the bushing die im not sure that I can

Working on my first legitimate wildcat and need a little direction from those who have done it before

Have you adjusted your die all the way down just before you start bumping the shoulder?

 

[WKR]

Have you adjusted your die all the way down just before you start bumping the shoulder?

Yup

 

[WKR]

The problem in your case is that Redding bushing dies do not size all the way to the shoulder. They’ve been like that forever.

21st Century makes this tool. There have been others. I have something that this was modeled after but they aren’t made anymore.

Neck Sizing Inserts

We are excited to introduce the 21st Century Innovation Neck Sizing Dies. Unlike traditional bushing dies these dies utilize a special interchangeable black nitride coated stainless steel die insert that will size down to the neck-shoulder junction of the case. The die insert is placed into the...

21stcenturyinnovation.com

I've heard the redding type s neck only will size all the way down, is there any truth to that?

 

[WKR]

FWIW, I recently sized Norma .270 to 25-06 using fl die and got similar. Case cycled so ran medium pressure forming load and it disappeared.

Thats good to hear, I don't have the chamber reamed yet so I can't know if these would chamber. I'm still in the early phases of getting this cartridge going and trying to make up dummy rounds.

 

[BBob]

I've heard the redding type s neck only will size all the way down, is there any truth to that?

Not to my recollection but it’s been many years since I’ve used one. I have only used one briefly in a 308. It sits in a box on my bench. The other issue is Redding bushings can vary wildly in the amount of leading edge radius/taper used on the bushing. Some have a minimal radius and some have a big chamfer. I haven’t bought any recently so I wouldn’t know how they are currently doing them.

 

[WKR]

Not to my recollection but it’s been many years since I’ve used one. I have only used one briefly in a 308. It sits in a box on my bench. The other issue is Redding bushings can vary wildly in the amount of leading edge radius/taper used on the bushing. Some have a minimal radius and some have a big chamfer. I haven’t bought any recently so I wouldn’t know how they are currently doing them.

I'm not using redding bushings, just the dies. I'm using SAC bushings which I believe have a 5 degree taper on the lead edge

I'm just trying to figure out the most cost effective way to do the initial neck down before fire form as once I actually chamber and fireform these cases I will send a few off to whidden and have dies made to my chamber.

Unfortunately right now I only have a few peices of brass as I'm waiting for a backorder that is estimated for end of June beginning of July.

 

[BBob]

The best way I know is a die like the 21st Century. That’s the type die I use. Like the other poster above I make my own custom bushings if needed for a project. Die with a handful of the many bushings I have.

 

[WKR]

Well here is my progress so far, this was using a neck only bushing die and I fear that its not going to work as you can see in the picture there is still the unsized portion on the dummy round.

Should I worry if I send this off to my reamer maker for coal/freebore, that it might effect the chamber dimensions at the neck shoulder junction? Obviously that area pointed out is incorrect, but everything else is where it should be.

I think I need to stop messing around with bushings and find either a full length sizer that I can make work or buy the 21st century tool mentioned above and give that a shot

 

[BBob]

Should I worry if I send this off to my reamer maker for coal/freebore, that it might effect the chamber dimensions at the neck shoulder junction? Obviously that area pointed out is incorrect, but everything else is where it should be.

If the bullet is where you want it it won't matter what the neck is doing as far as the freebore dimensions.

As to the bushing not sizing all the way down. If you bump it, size it to where it chambers IMO you'll be fine. I want the neck to touch slightly to hold it in place to fire-form so a little resistance would be fine. When the 6.5 SAUM Ultra Mags (6.5 GAP 4S) came along many sized 7 SAUM brass in a Redding 7 SAUM bushing die and the appropriate bushing. It looked just like what you have. I know of several that did it that way. Once fire-formed it was fine.

 

[TaperPin]

The best way I know is a die like the 21st Century. That’s the type die I use. Like the other poster above I make my own custom bushings if needed for a project. Die with a handful of the many bushings I have.
View attachment 716937

That’s a nice collection of bushings - a much more manageable system than a huge number of forming dies. I picked up a collection of forming dies to make 6BR from 308, and have almost started a collection of short ultra mag form dies, but seeing your bushing collection has me changing plans.

 

[Eric_F]

I'm also resizing 277 Fury, but just to 6.5 CM. I couldn't get the last 0.005" bump for the life of me, the brass just got too work hardened. What I settled on was an initial anneal, 308 die, 6.5 CM die, anneal, 6.5 CM die again. Then cut/trim, expander mandrel and neck turn. Massive pain but it makes really nice, really strong cases.

Edit: On the donut, maybe it's avoidable with the above tools but at least for my chamber the neck was too thick to even chamber a loaded round. Neck turning and a mandrel will take care of the donut as well.

 

[TaperPin]

Working on my first legitimate wildcat and need a little direction from those who have done it before

Sometimes finding an inexpensive die from another caliber with similar bore and shoulder angle to cut down, or otherwise modify can be well worth it. A friend with a lathe can be priceless.

 

[WKR]

The problem in your case is that Redding bushing dies do not size all the way to the shoulder. They’ve been like that forever.

21st Century makes this tool. There have been others. I have something that this was modeled after but they aren’t made anymore.

Neck Sizing Inserts

We are excited to introduce the 21st Century Innovation Neck Sizing Dies. Unlike traditional bushing dies these dies utilize a special interchangeable black nitride coated stainless steel die insert that will size down to the neck-shoulder junction of the case. The die insert is placed into the...

21stcenturyinnovation.com

Would i need the short or long for a short action magnum case?
Assuming the short but the website description is unclear

 

[BBob]

Would i need the short or long for a short action magnum case?
Assuming the short but the website description is unclear

I'd say short. Short mag brass is only .015-.020" longer than a 308. I'm puzzled as to their "up to approximately .308 case" statement as I don't see why it wouldn't work with even longer cases. My universal die is short and it will work with almost any case. If the die body gets too long it wouldn't work for shorter cases.

"short cases up to approximately .308 case-length"

 

[WKR]

I'd say short. Short mag brass is only .015-.020" longer than a 308. I'm puzzled as to their "up to approximately .308 case" statement as I don't see why it wouldn't work with even longer cases. My universal die is short and it will work with almost any case. If the die body gets too long it wouldn't work for shorter cases.

"short cases up to approximately .308 case-length"

Right, their description is not very clear, and I would say the short version would probably even work on long action cartridges like a 7prc or .284, but the way they word it seems off.