Why you should not take equity out or dump your 401 K to take super expensive hunts.

[cbeard64]

Pathetic response. Ramsey "teaches" people how to live on a budget where they currently are.

But you keep on being you

Ramsey is talking to folks in a pretty defined income range. He’s extremely debt averse (which is good advice for most). But those who can service debt for purchasing growth and/or income producing assets can do extremely well over time. I would not have many of the assets that I currently own without a bank’s help at the time I bought them.
Though I never went into debt on a sheep hunt, the same principle applies. I went on several hunts over the past 20 years that would have a hard time justifying at today’s prices.

 

[Gadjet]

Buy plenty of life insurance.

Good point

 

[roadrunner]

... those who can service debt for purchasing growth and/or income producing assets can do extremely well over time. I would not have many of the assets that I currently own without a bank’s help at the time I bought them.

Correct. This is how a person is able to step into the world of passive income.

Assets make you money. Liabilities cost you money.

 

[schmalzy]

If you are 40 years old and have 3.5 million or 1.5millino in your 401K. You don't have to ask anyone's permission to hunt sheep.

Most of these people are 30-60 and have 80,000 in their 401K. Or have nothing in their 401K.

Serious question; who here on Rokslide advocated or discussed spending money on one of these trips that only had 80k in retirement or some other serious asset?


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[Cyril]

Serious question; who here on Rokslide advocated or discussed spending money on one of these trips that only had 80k in retirement or some other serious asset?


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I was thinking about this as well. Just pulled a stat off cnn that stated the average 401k balance for a person between the ages of 35-44 was $91k, 45-54 was $169k.

There are a couple of possibilites:
1. The average rokslider is significantly above the average in terms of retirement savings
2. The average rokslider is more financially savvy and has multiple sources of wealth to draw from in retirement even though they have a low 401k value
3. The average rokslider is signifcantly less financially responsible when it comes to retirement planning and fully embrace the YOLO mentality

 

[schmalzy]

I was thinking about this as well. Just pulled a stat off cnn that stated the average 401k balance for a person between the ages of 35-44 was $91k, 45-54 was $169k.

There are a couple of possibilites:
1. The average rokslider is significantly above the average in terms of retirement savings
2. The average rokslider is more financially savvy and has multiple sources of wealth to draw from in retirement even though they have a low 401k value
3. The average rokslider is signifcantly less financially responsible when it comes to retirement planning and fully embrace the YOLO mentality

I haven’t researched it exhaustively, but I can only anecdotally reference @HornPorn and his situation, which definitely did not fit in the having no business to go category. Paid off house that was worth over 1 million. A far cry from pulling money out of a fledgling 401k.


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[cbeard64]

Yeah I think if he had simply said he was going to sell the house, buy another for $500K, and chase the Slam with the other $500K - probably very few would have batted an eye.

 

[FAAFO]

I am not a financial planner, but I have been following these discussions regularly.

A friend of mine is a booking agent, his top end hunts are about $20,000. Mostly he books common European species for reasonable prices. Trophy expectations are reasonable and there is a lot of success. He does not focus on high fenced areas, and has some very interesting species.

He has also hunted all over the world mostly on his own without an outfitter where possible.

He and I were in deer camp together in Hungary this week. We had this discussion, with 3 other hunters in camp and everyone said the same thing. It is a stupid endeavor.

There are other experiences you can have that are just as challenging and cost percentage points of what sheep hunts cost.

New Zelanad on your own or outfitted for Tahr and Chamois.

Europe Chamois, mouflon, capercaillie and black grouse hunts.

Spanish Ibex, Caucasian Tur, Tajikistan Ibex, Krygiz ibex among other options.

the problem with hunts priced in this tier is the same problem as drawing a tag that takes a lifetime to draw. The odds are very good that the hunt will not go the way you want.

On the first day at 0800 am of a very pricy aoudad free range hunt in West Texas I was offered a 32 inch ram, and I turned him down because I wanted to hunt more. 3 days later on the last day of the hunt I shot a 25 inch ram. Only ram we got onto, that wasn't 800 yards away running the other direction.

I had 9 or 10 points for Wyoming antelope and finally drew a good tag. Worst draught in 20 years, my father and uncle insisted on going and my father gave all of us covid. Then I gave it to my wife and kids. Was a rough couple of weeks. I shot a 12 inch buck because my father wanted to go home. He lied to me and told me he wasn't sick. So I picked him up in Cheyenne and then wasted the tag on a dink.

I know lots of people that have been on 2 or 3 sheep hunts for Dallas, and multiple sheep hunts for Stones and bighorns.

Personally know outfitters that have told me they are about 30% on their stone tags in BC. In the old days they would be able to use the same tag on multiple hunters taking them for long walks. Not finding a big enough ram.

Think this couldn't happen to you?

Don't romanticize it. It is a transaction between you and the outfitter.

If you are worth millions of dollars and $300,000 is nothing to you then do it. I don't personally feel as though you could do it for $300,000.

If you are not worth millions of dollars and blowing $300,000 resets your financial clock to zero for some heads on the walls and a couple weeks worth of memories think twice about it.

We aren't talking about 2024 prices. We are talking about 2028 prices if you are booking today.

Currently Mexican deserts are $45,000 to $75,000.
New Mexican deserts on the Amanda's are $75,000
Texas deserts are $95,000 to 120,000
Alberta and BC bighorns and Californias are $45,000-85,000
Dalls are $28,000 in Alaska to $45,000 in the NWT with the select outfitters
Stones are $70,000-120,000

So Dall average $35,000 today and $50,000 in 5 years
Stones average $80,000 today and $120,000 in fiver years
Desert average $55,000 in Mexico and $90,000 in the USA and in 5 years $120,000
Bighorns average $60,000 and in five years $80,000

Booked today if you got todays prices you'd be into $230,000 if you were lucky.
Most likely a $290,000 investment in some dead sheep on the wall no one will care about but you.

However saying that if it doesn't hurt you at all do it.

If you want romance and punishment of a tough trip go to Paris and join the Foreign Legion. You'll last a few months and get kicked out, and know true romance.

You lost me on wasting your tag on a 12” buck. Show some respect to the animal. You didn’t have to fill the tag, and then to be disappointed? You knew what you were pulling the trigger on.

Like said above to each their own, none of us are getting out of this alive.

None of the European species or Asian species trip my trigger. Leaving for dall sheep on Monday. It’s my 10ish hunt, would rather not hunt than chase animals I don’t care about.

 

[FAAFO]

Dave Ramsey:
Bankruptcies: 1
Wild sheep: 0

Me:
Bankruptcies: 0
Wild sheep: 2

Follow me for more financial advice.

Done!!!

 

[schmalzy]

I am not a financial planner, but I have been following these discussions regularly.

A friend of mine is a booking agent, his top end hunts are about $20,000. Mostly he books common European species for reasonable prices. Trophy expectations are reasonable and there is a lot of success. He does not focus on high fenced areas, and has some very interesting species.

He has also hunted all over the world mostly on his own without an outfitter where possible.

He and I were in deer camp together in Hungary this week. We had this discussion, with 3 other hunters in camp and everyone said the same thing. It is a stupid endeavor.

There are other experiences you can have that are just as challenging and cost percentage points of what sheep hunts cost.

New Zelanad on your own or outfitted for Tahr and Chamois.

Europe Chamois, mouflon, capercaillie and black grouse hunts.

Spanish Ibex, Caucasian Tur, Tajikistan Ibex, Krygiz ibex among other options.

the problem with hunts priced in this tier is the same problem as drawing a tag that takes a lifetime to draw. The odds are very good that the hunt will not go the way you want.

On the first day at 0800 am of a very pricy aoudad free range hunt in West Texas I was offered a 32 inch ram, and I turned him down because I wanted to hunt more. 3 days later on the last day of the hunt I shot a 25 inch ram. Only ram we got onto, that wasn't 800 yards away running the other direction.

I had 9 or 10 points for Wyoming antelope and finally drew a good tag. Worst draught in 20 years, my father and uncle insisted on going and my father gave all of us covid. Then I gave it to my wife and kids. Was a rough couple of weeks. I shot a 12 inch buck because my father wanted to go home. He lied to me and told me he wasn't sick. So I picked him up in Cheyenne and then wasted the tag on a dink.

I know lots of people that have been on 2 or 3 sheep hunts for Dallas, and multiple sheep hunts for Stones and bighorns.

Personally know outfitters that have told me they are about 30% on their stone tags in BC. In the old days they would be able to use the same tag on multiple hunters taking them for long walks. Not finding a big enough ram.

Think this couldn't happen to you?

Don't romanticize it. It is a transaction between you and the outfitter.

If you are worth millions of dollars and $300,000 is nothing to you then do it. I don't personally feel as though you could do it for $300,000.

If you are not worth millions of dollars and blowing $300,000 resets your financial clock to zero for some heads on the walls and a couple weeks worth of memories think twice about it.

We aren't talking about 2024 prices. We are talking about 2028 prices if you are booking today.

Currently Mexican deserts are $45,000 to $75,000.
New Mexican deserts on the Amanda's are $75,000
Texas deserts are $95,000 to 120,000
Alberta and BC bighorns and Californias are $45,000-85,000
Dalls are $28,000 in Alaska to $45,000 in the NWT with the select outfitters
Stones are $70,000-120,000

So Dall average $35,000 today and $50,000 in 5 years
Stones average $80,000 today and $120,000 in fiver years
Desert average $55,000 in Mexico and $90,000 in the USA and in 5 years $120,000
Bighorns average $60,000 and in five years $80,000

Booked today if you got todays prices you'd be into $230,000 if you were lucky.
Most likely a $290,000 investment in some dead sheep on the wall no one will care about but you.

However saying that if it doesn't hurt you at all do it.

If you want romance and punishment of a tough trip go to Paris and join the Foreign Legion. You'll last a few months and get kicked out, and know true romance.

Rereading this again; why do you advise against “romanticizing” it? If it’s purely transactional why even go? Fully aware that everyone has different ambitions and expectations, but after everything it took to pull the trip together the last thing I wanted was it to be just a transaction.

And not to throw stones, but why bring up shooting a small ram and a small buck on your hunts as justification for not going on a big hunt? Not trying to be difficult just trying to understand that intent of bringing it up. The way I read it, it implies more of an onus to be ready to go if you find a ram on day 1 or be comfortable going home empty handed.


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[FAAFO]

I wouldn’t even need to save any money for hunts if I had a dollar for every time a hunter blames drought for the reason why they didn’t kill a big animal.

One thing I know in life is the guys that consistently kill big stuff don’t have excuses, because they are not looking for one. Seems like it makes them really successful in work too.

 

[Brian Stewart]

Only thing that money can't buy you is your youth. Nothing wrong with saving but don't let it drive and control you. An old rich guy told me 24 years ago when I was going on my first elk hunt that I couldn't really afford that he wished he'd worked less and enjoyed his money more. Said he could have went to a lot of places hunting and fishing but didn't go because money was always on his mind. Too old to go now but have all the money he'd ever need (for what?) He totally regretted his decision. I've been on 23 elk hunts since enjoyed everyone of them and think of his words very often "wished I would've"
Everyone is gonna die some young and some old. Some will live life to the fullest some try to live with the fullest wallet. If I have enough extra to help out my friends, family, church and still go hunting I'm rich no matter what that savings account or 401K total is. One thing for sure when you can't go anymore you'll wish you could buy it back with your savings.
Some have great jobs that allows them to have a lot extra and some work hours and hours of overtime just to afford that OTC hunt that's a trip of a lifetime for them. Who am I to say who is the richest of the two?

 

[Drenalin]

Imma drain my 401k and put it all in lotto tickets, then hunt my ass off when I hit the big time.

 

[CodeMonkey]

I'm really hoping my OnlyFans takes off then.

 

[TreeWalking]

I am not a financial planner, but I have been following these discussions regularly.

A friend of mine is a booking agent, his top end hunts are about $20,000. Mostly he books common European species for reasonable prices. Trophy expectations are reasonable and there is a lot of success. He does not focus on high fenced areas, and has some very interesting species.

He has also hunted all over the world mostly on his own without an outfitter where possible.

He and I were in deer camp together in Hungary this week. We had this discussion, with 3 other hunters in camp and everyone said the same thing. It is a stupid endeavor.

There are other experiences you can have that are just as challenging and cost percentage points of what sheep hunts cost.

New Zelanad on your own or outfitted for Tahr and Chamois.

Europe Chamois, mouflon, capercaillie and black grouse hunts.

Spanish Ibex, Caucasian Tur, Tajikistan Ibex, Krygiz ibex among other options.

the problem with hunts priced in this tier is the same problem as drawing a tag that takes a lifetime to draw. The odds are very good that the hunt will not go the way you want.

On the first day at 0800 am of a very pricy aoudad free range hunt in West Texas I was offered a 32 inch ram, and I turned him down because I wanted to hunt more. 3 days later on the last day of the hunt I shot a 25 inch ram. Only ram we got onto, that wasn't 800 yards away running the other direction.

I had 9 or 10 points for Wyoming antelope and finally drew a good tag. Worst draught in 20 years, my father and uncle insisted on going and my father gave all of us covid. Then I gave it to my wife and kids. Was a rough couple of weeks. I shot a 12 inch buck because my father wanted to go home. He lied to me and told me he wasn't sick. So I picked him up in Cheyenne and then wasted the tag on a dink.

I know lots of people that have been on 2 or 3 sheep hunts for Dallas, and multiple sheep hunts for Stones and bighorns.

Personally know outfitters that have told me they are about 30% on their stone tags in BC. In the old days they would be able to use the same tag on multiple hunters taking them for long walks. Not finding a big enough ram.

Think this couldn't happen to you?

Don't romanticize it. It is a transaction between you and the outfitter.

If you are worth millions of dollars and $300,000 is nothing to you then do it. I don't personally feel as though you could do it for $300,000.

If you are not worth millions of dollars and blowing $300,000 resets your financial clock to zero for some heads on the walls and a couple weeks worth of memories think twice about it.

We aren't talking about 2024 prices. We are talking about 2028 prices if you are booking today.

Currently Mexican deserts are $45,000 to $75,000.
New Mexican deserts on the Amanda's are $75,000
Texas deserts are $95,000 to 120,000
Alberta and BC bighorns and Californias are $45,000-85,000
Dalls are $28,000 in Alaska to $45,000 in the NWT with the select outfitters
Stones are $70,000-120,000

So Dall average $35,000 today and $50,000 in 5 years
Stones average $80,000 today and $120,000 in fiver years
Desert average $55,000 in Mexico and $90,000 in the USA and in 5 years $120,000
Bighorns average $60,000 and in five years $80,000

Booked today if you got todays prices you'd be into $230,000 if you were lucky.
Most likely a $290,000 investment in some dead sheep on the wall no one will care about but you.

However saying that if it doesn't hurt you at all do it.

If you want romance and punishment of a tough trip go to Paris and join the Foreign Legion. You'll last a few months and get kicked out, and know true romance.

And, some of those hunts are under 50% harvest rates while others are nearly 100%. Choose wisely if need to tip something over.

 

[Marbles]

I think it really boils down to why. Chasing a Instagram type experience because one has seen others do it or wants to say they did it is dumb. Enjoying life and spending some money doing so is fine.

Sheep are the cool animal to hunt, plenty of other animals can be hunted in the exact same country. Any time I hear the word "slam" I get the impression someone is focusing on the "accomplishment" and not the experience.

People get to do what they want, and I get to think what I want about them for doing it.

The world is full of people who make piss poor decisions, from the cost of a can of dip a day to spending money they shouldn't. All of us make some dumb choices, there are old ritch people who whish they had payed more attention to things other than money, and there are old poor people who whish they had done a better job with money.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Grassymike]

Ok so if taking my retirement out to hunt Sheep is a bad idea what about moving to places where I can hunt as a resident ?

 

[Maverick1]

I am not a financial planner, but I have been following these discussions regularly.

A friend of mine is a booking agent, his top end hunts are about $20,000. Mostly he books common European species for reasonable prices. Trophy expectations are reasonable and there is a lot of success. He does not focus on high fenced areas, and has some very interesting species.

He has also hunted all over the world mostly on his own without an outfitter where possible.

He and I were in deer camp together in Hungary this week. We had this discussion, with 3 other hunters in camp and everyone said the same thing. It is a stupid endeavor.

There are other experiences you can have that are just as challenging and cost percentage points of what sheep hunts cost.

New Zelanad on your own or outfitted for Tahr and Chamois.

Europe Chamois, mouflon, capercaillie and black grouse hunts.

Spanish Ibex, Caucasian Tur, Tajikistan Ibex, Krygiz ibex among other options.

the problem with hunts priced in this tier is the same problem as drawing a tag that takes a lifetime to draw. The odds are very good that the hunt will not go the way you want.

On the first day at 0800 am of a very pricy aoudad free range hunt in West Texas I was offered a 32 inch ram, and I turned him down because I wanted to hunt more. 3 days later on the last day of the hunt I shot a 25 inch ram. Only ram we got onto, that wasn't 800 yards away running the other direction.

I had 9 or 10 points for Wyoming antelope and finally drew a good tag. Worst draught in 20 years, my father and uncle insisted on going and my father gave all of us covid. Then I gave it to my wife and kids. Was a rough couple of weeks. I shot a 12 inch buck because my father wanted to go home. He lied to me and told me he wasn't sick. So I picked him up in Cheyenne and then wasted the tag on a dink.

I know lots of people that have been on 2 or 3 sheep hunts for Dallas, and multiple sheep hunts for Stones and bighorns.

Personally know outfitters that have told me they are about 30% on their stone tags in BC. In the old days they would be able to use the same tag on multiple hunters taking them for long walks. Not finding a big enough ram.

Think this couldn't happen to you?

Don't romanticize it. It is a transaction between you and the outfitter.

If you are worth millions of dollars and $300,000 is nothing to you then do it. I don't personally feel as though you could do it for $300,000.

If you are not worth millions of dollars and blowing $300,000 resets your financial clock to zero for some heads on the walls and a couple weeks worth of memories think twice about it.

We aren't talking about 2024 prices. We are talking about 2028 prices if you are booking today.

Currently Mexican deserts are $45,000 to $75,000.
New Mexican deserts on the Amanda's are $75,000
Texas deserts are $95,000 to 120,000
Alberta and BC bighorns and Californias are $45,000-85,000
Dalls are $28,000 in Alaska to $45,000 in the NWT with the select outfitters
Stones are $70,000-120,000

So Dall average $35,000 today and $50,000 in 5 years
Stones average $80,000 today and $120,000 in fiver years
Desert average $55,000 in Mexico and $90,000 in the USA and in 5 years $120,000
Bighorns average $60,000 and in five years $80,000

Booked today if you got todays prices you'd be into $230,000 if you were lucky.
Most likely a $290,000 investment in some dead sheep on the wall no one will care about but you.

However saying that if it doesn't hurt you at all do it.

If you want romance and punishment of a tough trip go to Paris and join the Foreign Legion. You'll last a few months and get kicked out, and know true romance.

“Why you should not tell me what to do with my money or what to hunt”​

 

[HighUintas]

Good God. I can't fathom spending that much money to go hunting, unless I was worth 30mil. But I can't fathom that either.

I think if I wanted an adventure for a sheep, I'd just do the unlimited sheep hunt in Montana

 

[FAAFO]

I think it really boils down to why. Chasing a Instagram type experience because one has seen others do it or wants to say they did it is dumb. Enjoying life and spending some money doing so is fine.

Sheep are the cool animal to hunt, plenty of other animals can be hunted in the exact same country. Any time I hear the word "slam" I get the impression someone is focusing on the "accomplishment" and not the experience.

People get to do what they want, and I get to think what I want about them for doing it.

The would is full of people who make piss poor decisions, from the cost of a can of dip a day to spending money the shouldn't. All of us make some dumb choices, there are old ritch people who whish they had payed more attention to things other than money, and there are old poor people who whish they had done a better job with money.

What is an instagram type experience? And how are you finding out the why someone else is hunting for? Do you ask them? Do they tell you? And why does someone care why someone else is hunting?