Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

[35WhelenAI]

To the range of normal, or commonly used bullets for hunting. They are not a mono, but they are also “tougher” than an Accubond for instance.

Thanks, appreciate the info.

 

[Lou270]

Match bullets are called match bullets because they are designed for optimum accuracy and in some cases highest possible BC. Contrary to some posts, it is not “marketing”. No features in a match bullet are put there, nor tested for hunting. For ex, a match bullet has no special design features to promote or control bullet expansion whether skivving, wide hollow point, jacket tapering, etc…. Often, match bullets have very thin, uniform jackets which are good for accuracy and have higher bc (more lead = more weight for given length = higher bc).

For ex, the eldm has a polymer tip and hollow point similar to eldx because hornady believes this results in a more reliable BC than a traditional match hp. On the eldx the tip is there for similar reason plus to initiate expansion. If you look at sectioned versions they are slighltly different hollow cavities behind the polymer tip. The eldm may expand but the feature is not there for expansion nor work as well as what is on the eldx in all situations

So - what does this mean. Match bullets can change or be tweaked in some way that may change terminal behavior and not be discovered. Heck, I have on several occassions seen significant ogive changes from hornady for ex let alone what is going on inside. Possibly why see some erratic results reported from works great on elk to blows up on deer. Berger is a good ex of this. They made their bullet jackets thicker and since a “hunting” bullet, tested it. Not results they wanted so now have 2 lines - hunting and target. If an edlm or tmk jacket or core hardness changed, most likely go unannounced

This is a great post and not taking away or disagreeing with anything discussed on terminal performance. Hunting bullets are designed to expand and penetrate a certain way and there is some QC around this. Match bullets are not even if they do happen to expand. This is why manufacturers do not recommend their match bullets for hunting. Food for thought…

Lou

 

[Castle Rock]

Jeez, maybe we were all wrong

 

[35WhelenAI]

#162 is a well written post, regardless of what one chooses for themselves. The next post is simply dismissive, regardless.

Any room for disagreement on that?

What I can agree is there are credible match bullets (some) and match grade bullets that buck the traditions, but a disparaging half-azz predictable one-liner loses credibility and shows nothing.

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

It’s forgetting the small but important detail that TMKs are marketed as match bullets to get around bureaucracy. If they were labeled as hunting bullets a very large customer wouldn’t be able to use them. It’s also why they are probably out of stock everywhere.

 

[Flyjunky]

It’s forgetting the small but important detail that TMKs are marketed as match bullets to get around bureaucracy. If they were labeled as hunting bullets a very large customer wouldn’t be able to use them. It’s also why they are probably out of stock everywhere.

Exactly, same for a few of the Berger bullets.

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

Exactly, same for a few of the Berger bullets.

Do you know which ones?

 

[Flyjunky]

Do you know which ones?

From my understanding the 215 specifically. There are A LOT of those bullets going to that "big client"

 

[BBob]

Do you know which ones?

30 cal 185 Juggernaut and the OTM Tactical. Both are identical bullets but labeled differently so the OTM’s can be used by the military.

What is the difference between the 30 Cal 185 Grain Match Juggernaut Target and OTM Tactical? (30418 vs 30107)

These are simply different naming conventions that we use to clarify that the bullets can be used for each application. The military requires "OTM."

bergerbullets.com

 

[Lou270]

Exactly, same for a few of the Berger bullets.

This is still not marketing. Who are they marketing to? Berger made a SKU. In any case the military using a round is not a good advertisement for terminal performance for hunting. For such uses there can be no features specifically included that “expand or flatten easily in the human body”. That is how they get around it by using otms. There are no features to expand. They penetrate a ways and tumble and depending on constrution and velocity may fragment (berger hunting use very thin jacket to ensure fragment). That is why some soldiers report mixed results with them from good to pencillng through. Incidentally, the new 223 round looks a whole lot like a trophy bonded bear claw with a steel penetrator because of the marginal results (yaw dependence) of otm/fmj. I have not seen a section of new 6.8 bullet but bet it is same

Lou

 

[Lou270]

I will also add that in my original post was not intended to say match bullets good or bad for hunting. The post was there to say there is not some conspiracy by manufacturers against using their match bullets for hunting. Anybody who designs and manufacturers a product should know you design and manufacture to a spec and do testing to ensure meets spec. Nothing in a match bullet spec has anything to do with terminal performance (expansion, penetration, etc)

A match bullet for ex may have tighter accuracy tolerances than a hunting line when pulling samples from production for accuracy testing.

We can use match bullets for hunting based on our own testing with good results. No denying that and no rationalizing they are “game bullets in disguise”. It is a use at your own risk proposition and terminal results may be different from one production run to next

Lou

 

[Castle Rock]

This is still not marketing. Who are they marketing to? Berger made a SKU. In any case the military using a round is not a good advertisement for terminal performance for hunting. For such uses there can be no features specifically included that “expand or flatten easily in the human body”. That is how they get around it by using otms. There are no features to expand. They penetrate a ways and tumble and depending on constrution and velocity may fragment (berger hunting use very thin jacket to ensure fragment). That is why some soldiers report mixed results with them from good to pencillng through. Incidentally, the new 223 round looks a whole lot like a trophy bonded bear claw with a steel penetrator because of the marginal results (yaw dependence) of otm/fmj. I have not seen a section of new 6.8 bullet but bet it is same

Lou

You are incorrect in your understanding of how Bergers react in flesh
They don’t tumble and fragment, but rather the nose collapses initiating fragmentation
This is in contrast to something like a SMK which does as you describe

 

[Castle Rock]

#162 is a well written post, regardless of what one chooses for themselves. The next post is simply dismissive, regardless.

Any room for disagreement on that?

What I can agree is there are credible match bullets (some) and match grade bullets that buck the traditions, but a disparaging half-azz predictable one-liner loses credibility and shows nothing.

 

[Lou270]

You are incorrect in your understanding of how Bergers react in flesh
They don’t tumble and fragment, but rather the nose collapses initiating fragmentation
This is in contrast to something like a SMK which does as you describe

Nope. There are no features on a berger to iniate expansion. When it enters flesh, it starts to yaw. The yaw increases the frontal area in contact and the tip will fold over or collapse and if velocity is high enough the bullet will rupture. This is why the jackets are thinner on hunting bergers than target bergers…to ensure they rupture. If velocity is too low to rupture on a berger the tip will bend over and the bullet will tumble over just
like any other otm. Often the tip breaks off and core comes out. There is no fundamental difference between huntimg berger and other otm except berger pays attention to jacket to make sure ruptures to certain impact velocity. The berger hunting jacket is thin enough it may fracture without turning sideways but it is still the same principle

This is why berger has the same “neck” before fragging as other otm/fmj. However the military rounds typically only frag at >2700 fps where berger hunting with much thinner jacket will frag at lower velocity and as you noted not need to break at cannelure to frag like military rounds

Lou

 

[BBob]

This is why the jackets are thinner on hunting bergers than target bergers…to ensure they rupture.

FWIW This was never a designed feature by Berger. It was all happenstance and just the way things sorted themselves out over time.

 

[Lou270]

FWIW This was never a designed feature by Berger. It was all happenstance and just the way things sorted themselves out over time.

Yes and no. It started out happenstance that Bergers worked for hunting. However that changed once they designated the bullet as a hunting bullet. Now the thin jacket is a design feature for hunting. For ex, when they thickened jackets to solve issue with bullets coming apart in fast twist cut rifle barrels, they checked terminal performance. It was not what they wanted so they split into a thin jacketed hunting line and thick jacketed target line. That is point about hunting vs match bullet. The berger hunting bullet is a hunting bullet (one i use and like). It may fail or not perform as design on occassion like any other bullet but it is a hunting bullet with features included to perform terminally as expected. If they change something to hunting line they are gonna test it to make sure it still performs as expected which exacrly what Berger did to their credit

Lou

 

[Formidilosus]

Nope. There are no features on a berger to iniate expansion. When it enters flesh, it starts to yaw. The yaw increases the frontal area in contact and the tip will fold over or collapse and if velocity is high enough the bullet will rupture. This is why the jackets are thinner on hunting bergers than target bergers…to ensure they rupture. If velocity is too low to rupture on a berger the tip will bend over and the bullet will tumble over just
like any other otm. Often the tip breaks off and core comes out. There is no fundamental difference between huntimg berger and other otm except berger pays attention to jacket to make sure ruptures to certain impact velocity. The berger hunting jacket is thin enough it may fracture without turning sideways but it is still the same principle

This is why berger has the same “neck” before fragging as other otm/fmj. However the military rounds typically only frag at >2700 fps where berger hunting with much thinner jacket will frag at lower velocity and as you noted not need to break at cannelure to frag like military rounds

Lou

This is not correct at higher impact velocities. They are not tumbling, and then fragmention as a general thing. This is easily observed with properly calibrated 10% ballistics gel and a Phantom Camera.

 

[jimh406]

Weird that this thread is still going. I think the answer is still the same .... no reason for normal hunting distances, but very important for someone trying to set a record or personal record.

 

[Lou270]

This is not correct at higher impact velocities. They are not tumbling, and then fragmention as a general thing. This is easily observed with properly calibrated 10% ballistics gel and a Phantom Camera.

If you read my post closely I am not saying they tumble at high velocity. I am saying the bullets yaw and the nose collapses or bends and they fragment. This is why there is several inch narrow channel before they come apart. You will also see in gel they penetrate deeper at long range before they come apart. This is because bullet is more stable at impact so takes longer for yawing to present a large enough resistance/pressure to collapse nose and kick things off

If there is not enough veloctiy to fragment they will tumble. Like I said, Berger keeps the jackets thin so they fragment instead of tumbling to lower terminal velocity and why they are a “game” and not “target” bullet

Lou

 

[Formidilosus]

If you read my post closely I am not saying they tumble at high velocity. I am saying the bullets yaw and the nose collapses or bends and they fragment. This is why there is several inch narrow channel before they come apart. You will also see in gel they penetrate deeper at long range before they come apart. This is because bullet is more stable at impact so takes longer for yawing to present a large enough resistance/pressure to collapse nose and kick things off

If there is not enough veloctiy to fragment they will tumble. Like I said, Berger keeps the jackets thin so they fragment instead of tumbling to lower terminal velocity and why they are a “game” and not “target” bullet

Lou

I am well aware of how Bergers upset. The thin jacket VLD’s (now called hunting) either have their nose collapse in on itself, or breaks off exposing the lead. In both cases, at higher impact velocities they are upsetting/fragmenting from the front due to the thin and long hollow nose; they are not tumbling sideways and then fragmenting generally. The reason they are penetrating several inches before upsetting is because they are not mushrooming out- the nose is collapsing in. At low impact velocities, they sometimes do tumble and fragment.


What you are describing with yaw and fragmentation is correct for thick jacketed, shallow nose OTM’s- not so for Berger VLD/hunting.