Why are American branded trucks and most American branded vehicles so unreliable?

[TAArrowood]

As someone who worked in automotive manufacturing for 32 years, I can tell you for a fact that the overall quality of any vehicle is directly a result of the relationship between Engineers and Bean counters (accountants)... Most American vehicles start as a concept with no regard to cost... As the design comes closer to reality the marketing/accounting folks establish the market that it is going to and the potential price point that the market will bear.. Basically they take a 100K truck/car and de-engineer it to the price point that the marketing folks want.. The engineers then de-engineer it even more to bake in a profit margin... When the vehicle comes to market, you the buyer, is left with a vehicle that has been changed from a vehicle with all the best of everything to one that has plastic, rubber, fiberglass and other components that break.. Also, add to the engineering changes that are made to facilitate ease of manufacture. This usually results in further breakage, recalls, and high service costs to get fixed.. I have an F250 and there are actually components on the engine that require a complete cab removal to repair (Poor engineering).. Also, remember that manufacturers have to support their dealers... For example when Lexus first became a household name there were many dealers who had to close their doors. They couldn't make it just on sales.. The Lexus was so good that it did not generate enough out of the ordinary maintenance to keep dealers working... Believe me dealers love recalls, it makes them a lot of money and is 100% backed by the manufacturer... You will get lemons in any make/model.. The Japanese have very superior quality control systems and methods. Also, when an American manufacturer has waste/scrap/defects he writes the loss of and carries on.. In Japan the workers gather around the scrap/waste and morn its loss... The Japanese are very sensitive to waste of any kind (time, material, cost, etc, etc).. Being on an island with limited resources has engrained the need to conserve resources into them. Many of the better performing American manufacturers have adopted many of the Japanese Quality systems and those who have are better because of it.. I have been in the Georgetown, Ky. Toyota facility many times and most of Ford, GM and Chrysler/Dodge plants around the country... The variation in manufacturing methods, quality systems, plant quality culture explains why in many cases quality varies from company/product... I could tell you stories that would make your blood boil, but I won't here.. Good luck to all...

 

[Sapcut]

There are just lots of.....Be American, Buy American mindsets no matter the cost. It's kind of like be a vegan cause its better to kill yourself than kill a cow.

 

[MarlinMark]

I don't think that is a logical arguement....

 

[ODB]

Conversely, why are Japanese trucks and vehicles so reliable?

What is your reliability experience with both American and Japanese trucks?

Kaizen.

I’ve owned four Toyotas. Still own three. I will only buy Toyotas.

 

[Thinkingman]

As someone who worked in automotive manufacturing for 32 years, I can tell you for a fact that the overall quality of any vehicle is directly a result of the relationship between Engineers and Bean counters (accountants)... Most American vehicles start as a concept with no regard to cost... As the design comes closer to reality the marketing/accounting folks establish the market that it is going to and the potential price point that the market will bear.. Basically they take a 100K truck/car and de-engineer it to the price point that the marketing folks want.. The engineers then de-engineer it even more to bake in a profit margin... When the vehicle comes to market, you the buyer, is left with a vehicle that has been changed from a vehicle with all the best of everything to one that has plastic, rubber, fiberglass and other components that break.. Also, add to the engineering changes that are made to facilitate ease of manufacture. This usually results in further breakage, recalls, and high service costs to get fixed.. I have an F250 and there are actually components on the engine that require a complete cab removal to repair (Poor engineering).. Also, remember that manufacturers have to support their dealers... For example when Lexus first became a household name there were many dealers who had to close their doors. They couldn't make it just on sales.. The Lexus was so good that it did not generate enough out of the ordinary maintenance to keep dealers working... Believe me dealers love recalls, it makes them a lot of money and is 100% backed by the manufacturer... You will get lemons in any make/model.. The Japanese have very superior quality control systems and methods. Also, when an American manufacturer has waste/scrap/defects he writes the loss of and carries on.. In Japan the workers gather around the scrap/waste and morn its loss... The Japanese are very sensitive to waste of any kind (time, material, cost, etc, etc).. Being on an island with limited resources has engrained the need to conserve resources into them. Many of the better performing American manufacturers have adopted many of the Japanese Quality systems and those who have are better because of it.. I have been in the Georgetown, Ky. Toyota facility many times and most of Ford, GM and Chrysler/Dodge plants around the country... The variation in manufacturing methods, quality systems, plant quality culture explains why in many cases quality varies from company/product... I could tell you stories that would make your blood boil, but I won't here.. Good luck to all...

How does this correlate to the Dana rustaway frames and leaf springs that Toyota put under so many trucks?
How does this correlate to Texas and Mexico-produced Tacomas?
I was in college when German and Japanese manufacturing were very much of interest.
The US was getting its ass handed to it in the mid-eighties.
I remember when my dad bought a 1977 Honda Civic (paid over sticker...unheard of) and, being an engineer, went through that thing and marveled at the simplicity and brilliance of design. In 3 years, it was rusted through...Honda replaced the front fenders and doors willingly.

I don't disagree with what you're saying other than it is irrelevant in 2023.

 

[Mojave]

No idea why that's historically been the case, but the paradigm seems to have shifted some. There's tons of studies and objective reports out there that rank vehicle reliability though, and an interesting trend has emerged in the last 10-ish years or so. Honda no longer has all of their vehicles ranked in the top 3 for reliability. They have a few select vehicles that are (CRV, Civic), but as a whole, Honda reliability in recent years as a company has taken a hit. Toyota is no longer the reliability powerhouse, and most recent "ratings websites" (JD Power type sites) actually rank the Tacoma below the Ford Ranger and Chevy Colorado. Lots of reports of performance issues with recent Tacos and Tundras unfortunately.

In fact, I've been researching the mid-sized pickups as my next daily driver (currently in a half-ton and have no use for the additional capacity, but wish my wheelbase was shorter and my stance was narrower for mountain use), and there's lots of reports from places like Australia that the new standard for the Overland rigs that live in the bush is the Ford Ranger. The Ranger was only discontinued in the US Market for that 10 year span, and continued everywhere else, and there's lots of reports that it out does the new Tacomas in that environment. Just one example, but the more I research, the more I fall out of love with Toyota.

First Gen Tacos are a different conversation, but anything newer than the late 2000's and it seems that lots of the Japanese brands have fallen off the proverbial Totem Pole they were on top of for so long.

You cannot use data from another country unless the vehicle is produced in the same factory to the same standard.

 

[TAArrowood]

Bottom line.. They have a well engineered product, a quality mindset/culture and quality systems/methods to verify that the engineering/manufacturing processes are designed to produce quality.. Another major difference between American and Japanese vehicles is this; American manufacturers are almost entirely assembly.. They outsource the vast majority of components and assemble them into THEIR vehicle.. The suppliers all have a quality tolerance that they have to work within which is usually fairly broad.. A supplier will never produce a part/product that is better than the price he's being paid to make it. When you add the accumulated tolerances into the whole assembly the vehicles overall quality can suffer.. Ex: engines come from company A, transmissions from company B, axles from company C, etc, etc.. They have tolerances that will allow them to be assembled together on the production line. Toyota and many other Japanese companies will not allow major/critical parts to be supplied by non-Toyota plants.. That way they maintain much tighter control of the quality of major/critical components. Also, this allows the engineering to be shared openly amongst the major suppliers.

 

[Broomd]

Apparently you have never worked for a corporation who openly despises blue collar.

They take everything and anything they can from us at every opertunity they get.

My union has protected my position, pay, and safety several times in 16 yrs

Spent much of my life as a blue collar worker!

Broken clock is right twice a day, maybe a few more times over 16 years...

 

[Macintosh]

All I know is after owning 5 toyota trucks, my opinion of the new ones isnt nearly as good as it once was. My 2006 tacoma was all problems, many of which were significant, and my wifes last tacoma wasnt much better. Im now on my second chevy truck since 2017, wife is driving a pre-covid 2020 tacoma. Currently driving a 2019 silverado LD that I really like. I cant drive tacomas anymore simply due to the fit, I cant see out of them and they are uncomfortable. I almost bought a tundra in 2019 but I liked the chevy better, and was simply ready to try something different after dealing with those two tacomas. We’ll see if I still like my chevy in another couple years. Wont really surprise me either way.

One thing I havent seen mentioned is that I have to think car companies take into account average time before the vehicle is sold. Virtually no one I know outside of a few close friends keeps their vehicles even to 100k miles. If that isnt part if the issue, Id be surprised.

Also, I envy everyone south and west of me. Its the rare vehicle in this climate that doesnt rust out well before 200k regardless of how well its running.

 

[def90]

Conversely, why are Japanese trucks and vehicles so reliable?

What is your reliability experience with both American and Japanese trucks?

Is that really true or just something thrown out there?

My Jeep Wrangler has 300k miles on it, my Dodge Dakota on the other hand has been a piece of shit, I do have to say that I bought it used and who knows what that thing was exposed to in those years of previous ownership.

I've heard a lot of bad stuff about Tundras and Tacomas. Though not a truck everyone I know that has ever owned a Volkswagon would never buy another one yet they have carried the internet lore of being reliable cars for years.

 

[madgrad02]

Maybe lucky, but between the 3 Rams in the fam (2 mine and 1 my dad's hemis and an ecodiesel) and my old dodge Dakota, zero complaints or issues besides regular maintenance.

 

[Seth]

No issues on my 2002 Tacoma (75k), my 2004 Ram had three warped manifolds covered under warranty plus lost the rear differential and power steering pump, plus seals in the steering system (175k). No issues with a 2016 4Runner (125k), but my 2020 Ram (105k) has had two manifolds under warranty, plus in 3x for issues with the auto-start. All were bought new and I stay on top of maintenance. Small sample size, but I get my 2023 Tundra in a couple of weeks.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I’ve owned several of all of the domestic trucks over a 40 year timespan. Generally speaking they have all been reliable. I has one S10 back in the 90s that didn’t make it 6 months and I sold it off and bought a Dodge Dakota with the 318 V8 in it. That to date has been the most reliable truck I’ve owned.

My son is currently driving my hand me down 2004 Z71 5.3L. It has 375k miles. It’s been through several transmissions but I blame that on the shop that was repairing them.

I currently own a 2012 Ram 2500 Cummins with ~215k on it. It’s been dead reliable as well.

Now to cars: I’ve had nothing but crap luck with ALL of the domestics we’ve owned. I bought out first “foreign” car in 2003 or so; an Acura TL and we’ve owned nothing but Acura, Honda, Toyota and Lexus since then. You just can’t kill them and the build quality and durability over time it way better than any domestic we’ve ever owned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Maverick1]

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again. It's unfortunate that most people will scroll right past the actual data, gathered from over a million vehicles that have been independently inspected, which will indicate which makes/models are more reliable with the significant components of a vehicle.

Use the data. It will answer the questions regarding vehicle reliability.

There are a few threads here debating this topic, specifically around compact trucks and full-size trucks.

To save some clicks:

• Toyota (422k vehicles inspected)
• Chevy (376k vehicles inspected)
• Nissan
• Ford
• Dodge

Yes, the data shows that Toyota is rated higher than chevy, dodge, ford, and nissan.

For trucks

• Tundra
• Titan
• F-Series
• Ram
• Silverado

Dodge Ram and Ford's F-series had some turd years.

@Thinkingman - how do your “facts” compare with this data set? I’d be curious to know…..

 

[S-3 ranch]

You can’t buy a good quality Toyota or Nissan in the USA, the government make the manufacture put to many smog/ emissions standards
a diesel Toyota Hilux or land cruiser without any emissions will run forever
same with a ford ranger/Mazda

 

[Szwampdonkey]

Toyota drivers

 

[Rokbar]

Just look at what brands are broke down on the side of US highways. Then anyone can make their own decision.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again. It's unfortunate that most people will scroll right past the actual data, gathered from over a million vehicles that have been independently inspected, which will indicate which makes/models are more reliable with the significant components of a vehicle.

Use the data. It will answer the questions regarding vehicle reliability.

There are a few threads here debating this topic, specifically around compact trucks and full-size trucks.

To save some clicks:

• Toyota (422k vehicles inspected)
• Chevy (376k vehicles inspected)
• Nissan
• Ford
• Dodge

Yes, the data shows that Toyota is rated higher than chevy, dodge, ford, and nissan.

For trucks

• Tundra
• Titan
• F-Series
• Ram
• Silverado

Dodge Ram and Ford's F-series had some turd years.

This was going to be what I posted next. I was passed this by the managers of some of the worlds largest fleet vehicle shops of 4x4’s.

 

[Formidilosus]

This is great to hear. I can only go off what I'm reading online, which is that reliability is decreasing for Toyotas based upon different ratings and websites online. I'll freely admit I'm wrong, in fact I hope I am, because the Toyotas still offer a ton that I like. Thanks for calling my post out sir, I better do some more digging.

I’m not saying the new Toyota 4x4’s are as reliable as they used to be, we won’t know that until we get a significant amount of them out there with 200K plus miles on them. Everything I am seeing and hearing from people that run fleets that I know, is that Toyota trucks and SUV’s are still on average the most problem free vehicles.


The link that @Maverick1 gave us a good look as is probably publicly available that has enough data sets to be relevant.

 

[Felix40]

Ain’t you in luck. View attachment 534571
The loan paperwork comes with divorce papers because no woman wants to be seen with you in one.

Dang. I was hoping you’d have a picture of a truck.