Who is dropping their standards?

[willfrye027]

So you are saying you would rather hunt a highly managed area with terrible habitat than an area with primo habitat that is poorly managed?

I am taking the primo habitat every single time. Some percentage of those bucks are going to figure it out and get to 4, 5, 6 yrs old and be donkeys.

We agree there! But, I want to hunt it every year..

 

[S.Clancy]

We agree there! But, I want to hunt it every year..

There are pockets of good to great habitat in alot of places, you just have to find them. That is the fun part.

 

[WeiserBucks]

So you are saying you would rather hunt a highly managed area with terrible habitat than an area with primo habitat that is poorly managed?

I am taking the primo habitat every single time. Some percentage of those bucks are going to figure it out and get to 4, 5, 6 yrs old and be donkeys.

All I'm saying is that habitat can't overcome a wholesale slaughter in Nov due to poor management. I know several guys who burned 24+ points on some of the best units in the country over the last few years and couldn't find a big buck to shoot. A couple of those guys went guided with top outfitters and their guides were telling them to shoot a 160 buck because that was all that's left after the CWD genocide. I also know guys who consistently kill very good bucks in garbage units.

I'd rather hunt every year and have a chance at big buck than hunt every 20+ years and have a chance at a big buck. Everywhere that has mule deer has a big one or two, some areas more so than others. We'll never get to hunt them without a tag and they'll never get old enough and enough numbers with to many tags, gotta find a balance in there somewhere. Old man winter sometimes destroys our plans just to throw another wrench into the mix.

 

[CorbLand]

Residents in Utah are seeing more years between tags too, especially in certain regions. Many don't even refer to the general tag as "general" any more. @CorbLand can enlighten more, he lives there.

Me, enlighten? Comedy Central here you come, Robby. If you wanted to be enlightened, call Hobbs, Scotty or OP. They actually kill shit. I just pack weapons around the mountains and pretend.

There is a lot to unpack in this thread, and about three novels could be written regarding each of its topics.

To answer OPs question. No lowering of my standards here. I havent killed a deer since 2016 and have no interest in shooting one I dont want to shoot. The only way I would kill a young deer is if it was already packaged and in the freezer for me. I have zero problem with people killing whatever they want. They got the tag, it allows them to take a public resource and privatize it. They can do what they wish with that ability. For those that say "you shouldnt be entitled to kill a deer just because you have a tag" or any variation of that. Whats more entitled, killing any deer you want because you have a tag or telling people what deer they can kill with the tag they got? If the tags says they can shoot a deer with horns, they can kill a deer with horns. Thats the way it should be.

As for the waiting for tags and specifically in Utah. There are about 1000 people that you should listen to before me but my new years resolution is to listen more and talk less and I got two more days until that hits. So

I hunt one unit in Utah and pay close attention to its draw odds. Its not a great unit, in fact people use to and some still do apply for it just so they can get a tag and hunt the extended season. They have no intention of actually hunting during general season. For archery, looking back, 2019 was the last year that you had a chance at drawing with 0 points. In 4 years it has seen a point creep of .7 or .175 per year. If I was to say, you know, I am willing to wait 3 years to get a tag, I actually better be willing to wait 4. Here is the kicker though, that is just for the first tag. The next tag will take 5, if creep holds the same. Your "I am willing to wait three years to get a tag," just became an average 4.5 years and your just getting started.

The bigger question that you need to ask yourself when that thought comes into your head, is have I looked at the places that have gone to that model? Has the hunting gotten better? I dont know every area in the western US and am I sure that there is one or two that it has but S. Utah has basically gone to that model over the last decade or so ( I dont follow its odds as close) and people are still complaining about the quality of deer.

The second question that you need to ask yourself is do you like hunting or do you like killing? Personally, anyone that says "I like hunting so much I am willing to only go every 3-5 years, for 5 days because I want to hunt big bucks" truly should be saying "I want to kill a big buck to put on the wall so I can tell people I killed a big buck." It does not compute to me that people can say "I like hunting so much I am willing to advocate to do it the least amount as possible." I get that we have to do things for the betterment of the resource and that will take sacrifice but the resource is deer, not big deer.

In the last 40-50 years, Utah has cut about 75% of its deer tags. Is the hunting better? Are there better bucks on the landscape? Is it less crowded?

The "you better be careful what you wish for" holds true when it comes to tag allocation. Like I said, I have had 6 tags in the last 7 years and have killed zero deer but I had a tag and the opportunity to hunt. The tag is the opportunity. If you just want to look at big deer, Utahs LE units have them and nobody is stopping you from going.

Take it for what you paid for it, I was a below average student in school and my life proves that I am still well below average at most everything. I really just hope people are truly thinking things through and are truly honest with themselves when they advocate for changes.

 

[CorbLand]

I'd rather hunt every year and have a chance at big buck than hunt every 20+ years and have a guarantied big buck. Everywhere that has mule deer has a big one or two, some areas more so than others. We'll never get to hunt them without a tag and they'll never get old enough and enough numbers with to many tags, gotta find a balance in there somewhere. Old man winter sometimes destroys our plans just to throw another wrench into the mix.

Changed one thing but this sums up my feelings towards hunting.

I love animals, I love looking at them but I love them a little bit more when I have tags in my pocket.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Changed one thing but this sums up my feelings towards hunting.

That's the kicker, there isn't a tag in the world that GUARANTEES a big buck. As you said earlier, the tag is the opportunity. Some people couldn't kill a 4 point on Antelope Island, some people kill 300" deer on 1 point tags while road hunting for a meat buck and everything in between. No guarantees and better yet, no refunds. Points are kinda like bridges, once they're burnt there's no going back.

 

[CorbLand]

That's the kicker, there isn't a tag in the world that GUARANTEES a big buck. As you said earlier, the tag is the opportunity. Some people couldn't kill a 4 point on Antelope Island, some people kill 300" deer on 1 point tags while road hunting for a meat buck and everything in between. No guarantees and better yet, no refunds. Points are kinda like bridges, once they're burnt there's no going back.

Oh I get that. I am saying that if you came to me and said "you can get a tag every year and have a chance at finding a big buck or you can get one tag every 20 years and we guarantee you a big buck" I will take my chances with a tag every year.

6 tags in 7 years and I havent killed a deer and I am not holding out for 180s. The thing that pisses me off the most? I didnt get to eat 7 tags.

 

[MT-nuffgun]

North dakota the residents wait for ever for a muley tag

And one mile west of the North Dakota border, nonresidents kill more mule deer bucks than residents. (Including residents from the west that come to region 7 to hunt). Sooo….., which agency is right?

 

[KurtR]

And one mile west of the North Dakota border, nonresidents kill more mule deer bucks than residents. (Including residents from the west that come to region 7 to hunt). Sooo….., which agency is right?

Guess i dont know as i was just simply answering a question on who has to wait more than a couple years for tags.

 

[Dirtscoots]

Oregon is a great state to complain about draw odds. Both resident and non. The worst part is waiting 5 years to hunt a unit and there is still no deer because of poor management of predators. I actually have enough points to hunt the unit I normally hunt but spend my time with any out of state tag I can get. With the Montana complaints I understand the frustration but without any kind of actual reporting system there is no real statistic showing who kills what that I’m aware of? They randomly call some hunters and the only other conclusion for % of anyone shooting small deer is what you see in the back of a pickup and the license plate unless I’m missing something?

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

Careful what you wish for. It starts at 2-3 years to get a tag and will end up being every 10 years quickly.

I agree, I don't care how bad the hunting gets never would I be willing to wait two to three years between hunting. It's much more than just the kill, plus if you're out there you have a shot.

 

[Predator_SD]

Slashing tires is not?

No, absolutely not a felony.

 

[WeiserBucks]

No, absolutely not a felony.

In my neck of the woods, vandalism causing greater than $1000 damage is a felony. Not hard to get there with a set of slashed tires.

 

[willfrye027]

I agree, I don't care how bad the hunting gets never what I be willing to wait two to three years between hunting. It's much more than just the kill, plus if you're out there you have a shot.

My most cherished hunt this past season was hunting A zone with my uncle in the deer camp his father has been hunting in for over 60 years. It’s realistically a hunt for forked horn deer but we get to go every year!

Absolutely there is a time and place for hunting big bucks. But I could not live without the yearly deer camp type hunts in my home state.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Me, enlighten? Comedy Central here you come, Robby. If you wanted to be enlightened, call Hobbs, Scotty or OP. They actually kill shit. I just pack weapons around the mountains and pretend.

There is a lot to unpack in this thread, and about three novels could be written regarding each of its topics.

To answer OPs question. No lowering of my standards here. I havent killed a deer since 2016 and have no interest in shooting one I dont want to shoot. The only way I would kill a young deer is if it was already packaged and in the freezer for me. I have zero problem with people killing whatever they want. They got the tag, it allows them to take a public resource and privatize it. They can do what they wish with that ability. For those that say "you shouldnt be entitled to kill a deer just because you have a tag" or any variation of that. Whats more entitled, killing any deer you want because you have a tag or telling people what deer they can kill with the tag they got? If the tags says they can shoot a deer with horns, they can kill a deer with horns. Thats the way it should be.

As for the waiting for tags and specifically in Utah. There are about 1000 people that you should listen to before me but my new years resolution is to listen more and talk less and I got two more days until that hits. So

I hunt one unit in Utah and pay close attention to its draw odds. Its not a great unit, in fact people use to and some still do apply for it just so they can get a tag and hunt the extended season. They have no intention of actually hunting during general season. For archery, looking back, 2019 was the last year that you had a chance at drawing with 0 points. In 4 years it has seen a point creep of .7 or .175 per year. If I was to say, you know, I am willing to wait 3 years to get a tag, I actually better be willing to wait 4. Here is the kicker though, that is just for the first tag. The next tag will take 5, if creep holds the same. Your "I am willing to wait three years to get a tag," just became an average 4.5 years and your just getting started.

The bigger question that you need to ask yourself when that thought comes into your head, is have I looked at the places that have gone to that model? Has the hunting gotten better? I dont know every area in the western US and am I sure that there is one or two that it has but S. Utah has basically gone to that model over the last decade or so ( I dont follow its odds as close) and people are still complaining about the quality of deer.

The second question that you need to ask yourself is do you like hunting or do you like killing? Personally, anyone that says "I like hunting so much I am willing to only go every 3-5 years, for 5 days because I want to hunt big bucks" truly should be saying "I want to kill a big buck to put on the wall so I can tell people I killed a big buck." It does not compute to me that people can say "I like hunting so much I am willing to advocate to do it the least amount as possible." I get that we have to do things for the betterment of the resource and that will take sacrifice but the resource is deer, not big deer.

In the last 40-50 years, Utah has cut about 75% of its deer tags. Is the hunting better? Are there better bucks on the landscape? Is it less crowded?

The "you better be careful what you wish for" holds true when it comes to tag allocation. Like I said, I have had 6 tags in the last 7 years and have killed zero deer but I had a tag and the opportunity to hunt. The tag is the opportunity. If you just want to look at big deer, Utahs LE units have them and nobody is stopping you from going.

Take it for what you paid for it, I was a below average student in school and my life proves that I am still well below average at most everything. I really just hope people are truly thinking things through and are truly honest with themselves when they advocate for changes.

Good post. I am totally with you as a neighbor to the east. I refuse to wait 2-4 years to hunt deer. I will never become a good deer hunter by doing so and I like to hunt, so this means I pick up mediocre tags and try my best to find a buck that meets my idea of a shooter. I do think that if we wanted improved age class the biggest change at least in Co is season dates. You could give out the same amount of tags, heck probably even more but if you had to hunt deer in the month of Oct and really limit who gets to hunt them after Nov 5. There will be more bucks on the landscape and more mature bucks as a by product. Now letting guys have 2 weeks to knock them down during the rut and the bucks of all age classes get hammered, but man are they fun to hunt during the rut

 

[bigmoose]

Am I lowering my standards ? No. I have always looked for a good mature buck and will continue to do so. I don't shoot young bucks or does. I don't care if you do though. If you have the tag and it makes you happy, then I'm happy. Do I wish you held out for a mature buck ? Sure, but it's your tag. If we all held out for mature bucks would fish and game increase tags because not enough bucks were being killed ? I don't know.

I've hunted a lot units where there were lots of hunters. I used to justify those guys shooting a smaller buck by not having to compete with them the rest of the season.

The last forkie I shot was over 40 years ago.

 

[COelk89]

Colorado has some of the best muley habitat on earth and they've smashed the older age class bucks with a pile of tags all throughout November. Habitat cannot overcome poor management.

Dude when is the last time you went and hung around on some winter Range? It ain't good. Cheatgrass, greasewood, and PJ....mmmmmmm sounds appetizing.

I had to circle around here to see what everyone was saying...looks like many are still framing this as a resident vs. non resident issue.

Everyone should probably go read the corner stone of North American Wildlife Management A sand County Almanac. The individual does not mean s***. A person passing on a buck or shooting it has not bearing on that populations genetic or realized potential for antler growth. Units and trophy quality are managed at the subpopulation level...by managing for buck to doe ratios and overall population size. The problem is and always has been habitat. The habitat is cyclical. If you will go and read A sand county almanac you can learn about the Kaibab deer herd that collapsed after eating itself out of house and home due to eliminating all predators while not managing the herd. The deer herd PERMANETATLY lowered the carrying capacity of the land. Similar population changes have occurred with deer and elk, with mule deer peaking in the 90s and elk now peaking probably now...These are oscillations that occur on decades or even centuries basis. To regain lost carrying capacity due to our poor rangeland management, it takes decades or centuries because it starts with rebuilding soil! Please everyone so worried about what your neighbor is shooting, worry a little more about habitat or lack thereof. I swear people just go out and don't even realize, deer and elk have to eat. They don't go back to the RV when they finish hunting.

 

[Duckhunter14]

I struggle with this topic. Because on one hand I agree with some of the comments about having a standard and sticking to it. I’ve eaten multiple tags and convinced others I was hunting with to hold off on younger less mature animals during hunts to try and find the age class and size we had set our standard to for that hunt. But then I lowered my standard on a hunt this year after grinding for 6 days and not finding anything on a early Nevada hunt, the last light of the last day with camp already loaded I dumped a young 4 point for meat and headed home. I knew I had another hunt coming and I passed multiple deer in that hunt and never ended up filling the tag, but I may have shot a younger buck if I didn’t already have meat in the freezer. So it’s a give and take, now I didn’t keep my family from starving by filling a tag. But I do put a lot of meat in the freezer every year that my family eats and offsets a little bit of the money I put into tags and apps. But I don’t do it strictly for meat, I do it because I love it and that is a wonderful bi-product. If I did it only for meat I’d only buy cow tags and strictly hunt elk. I eat elk, I hunt mule deer.

I think what it boils down to is that as long as every person on the mountain is following the law it is up to them to decide what their personal standard is and don’t think twice about it. There are a lot of limitations some folks have when it comes to hunting and every forkie I see next to the road I yell out the window, I’m going to find your dad but you better run! There may be a meat hunter behind me! And if it’s an old timer trying to fill a tag solo or a youngster killing their first deer I hope they do so, with zero judgement from me.

Create your own standard based off of your limitations; time to hunt, points used, other hunts planned, physical ability, family need (meat in the freezer) etc and don’t judge others.

The real killer for mule deer is habitat loss, especially on their winter range. If it makes you feel better eating your tag if you don’t find a 180” buck, then good on ya. But let’s not trash people that are following the law and enjoying this thing that we all love.

 

[Stickmark]

Regarding Arizona, some units now close for mulies (or any antlered deer in mulie terrain; we get overlap between mulies and coues) when a certain number of archery harvest occur.

Over the years, I passed on lots of small coues, and once or twice on small spike mulies. But now, with the drought getting real, lions doing well, crossbows, I would drop the string on the coues, and I still would pass on the mulies.

So I am not lowering my mule deer standards.
On my rifle hunt this November, I glassed a smaller buck on evening one, (700yds?) and since my mind was operating in southern AZ mode and not Western Desert AZ mode, I figured an other buck would come in soon. Sorry, Mr. Bond. Never saw another buck (maybe that buck was the deer that disturbed my "O'dark hundred coffee").

However, had a bighorn sheep at 25 yds, and last day saw does from 800yds or more all the way in to 18 yds. Watching the does, I asked myself if I would shoot a small buck. The answer was no. I had two long weekends backpacked in, I hunted my plan, it was the last day, and I felt I got my monies worth. A scout leader who hunts KOFA refuge said my plan would have worked in a normal rainfall year, but not this drought period.

I agree with a lot of these thoughts. I agree with Corbland. I like to pit my wits against the animal. With my primitive bows, I am giving the animal a pretty high chance to survive. Have not arrowed one since 2017. With rifle, I am way more picky. Coelk89 is correct to remind us about long term habitat.