Who is dropping their standards?

[McCrapper]

And as a guy who lives and hunts out west and has never killed a whitetail. I think some of the mule deer with “whitetail frame and points coming off it are pretty damn cool!

Come shoot a whitetail at my place and Ill shoot a muley at yours!

 

[KurtR]

Im at the point now I hunt with my wife and son and they can fill their tags on what ever they want. My wife likes big deer she has not shot one in 6 years my son will kill the first deer in front of him he wants to eat them. I have not shot a deer in the last 4 years it was a whitetail I have not shot a mulie for a while I like to let them live. I have no problem with people shooting what they see fit with their license they paid for and doing it legally.

 

[Indian Summer]

I’m not against standards, but everyone has their own, and I think that if someone is within the law it’s not my place to judge them. I do find it hard to believe that non residents alone are responsible for killing smaller bucks. By design, only a small minority of tags go to non residents. So how are they coming in and wiping out all the immature bucks when 80-90% of the hunters are residents? The tag allocation makes it mathematically impossible that non residents are killing all/most of the immature deer.

Bingo!!!

And after a non res hunter waits 10 years for a tag I can tell you he’s not shooting a small deer. Who shoots small deer? Residents who can punch the tag and just buy another one next year. Is that true for all residents? No. Is the above true for all non residents? No. I don’t think we need to argue. But numbers don’t lie. The sheer number of resident hunters year after year has a bigger impact.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

My standards change a lot depending on the circumstances of the hunt. Is my freezer full? How much time do I have to hunt for that particular season? What is the known quality of buck I have seen or know for sure exists in that unit? I try to go into a hunt with a realistic standard based on those three questions. That may be a 140 buck, or a 180 buck, depending on the tag, the time, and the scouting. Once I’m on the hunt, it comes down to this:

Does the buck get me exited? I’m trying to replicate that heart rate spike and excitement when I first lay eyes on a “big buck”. The size of deer that produces that response has changed a lot over the years. I have a lot of fun looking for THAT buck, but it really no longer interests me killing one that doesn’t get my heart rate up. I should have to TRY to get it together before the shot! If I know it’s the biggest buck i can reasonably find in the unit, I’ll be exited, even if that’s a 150. If I truly need the meat, I’ll take a lesser buck at the end of my hunt.

Couldn’t have said it better

 

[MT-nuffgun]

From what I can tell from personal observation on this forum, in the field, and from local hotel parking lots during hunting season. Most nonresidents who come to Montana have pretty low standards. Either that or they are afraid of going home empty handed. Both of which are moves. cmon guys, at least let them live long enough to become weaned. Shoot a doe at the end of your hunt if you are shaking in your little panties about going home empty. Go black tail hunting on the coast or coues deer hunting down south if you want to spent a bunch of money on a dink in the end.

 

[S.Clancy]

I’m not against standards, but everyone has their own, and I think that if someone is within the law it’s not my place to judge them. I do find it hard to believe that non residents alone are responsible for killing smaller bucks. By design, only a small minority of tags go to non residents. So how are they coming in and wiping out all the immature bucks when 80-90% of the hunters are residents? The tag allocation makes it mathematically impossible that non residents are killing all/most of the immature deer.

Bingo!!!

And after a non res hunter waits 10 years for a tag I can tell you he’s not shooting a small deer. Who shoots small deer? Residents who can punch the tag and just buy another one next year. Is that true for all residents? No. Is the above true for all non residents? No. I don’t think we need to argue. But numbers don’t lie. The sheer number of resident hunters year after year has a bigger impact.

It depends on the state. In MT, for example, they can have an outsized impact because general licenses are good almost everywhere, so NR hunters can concentrate heavily in areas. For instance, in 2022 over half of the bucks harvested in Region 6 and 7 were by NR even though they represent ~15% of the licenses.

 

[robby denning]

Well it seems our mule deer herds are hurting west wide, although I think better days are coming. I have heard of some people dropping their standards on the quality of mule deer they are willing to shoot. I don't feel like I am in this category. If people are falling into this category I have no problem with it, it is their choice. Just wondering if any of you out there are feeling this way. I would love to hear all your thoughts, thanks!

Hey OP, we mentioned this thread on the Rokcast episode today.

For me, dropping standards means I can't the tags I was getting 10 years ago, so naturally, I gotta match my standards to the tag I can secure. Can't kill what's not there! But personally don't want to shoot small bucks for meat when there is plenty of cow elk opportunity.

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

Hey OP, we mentioned this thread on the Rokcast episode today.

For me, dropping standards means I can't the tags I was getting 10 years ago, so naturally, I gotta match my standards to the tag I can secure. Can't kill what's not there! But personally don't want to shoot small bucks for meat when there is plenty of cow elk opportunity.

Oh sweet I will listen to it. Good point about the tags. I haven't dropped my standards but they are not extremely hi, although much higher than they use to be. Most the time if I think it has a chance to break 170, I will shoot here on a general unit in Utah. Depending on the state and the tag my standards will change. It would have to be an absolute premium tag for me to pass on a 180 buck.

 

[robby denning]

…. It would have to be an absolute premium tag for me to pass on a 180 buck.

In all my years of hunting, it’s always been hard to find 180 and above bucks.

 

[Scottf270]

This pertains mostly to Montana but may be valid elsewhere:

I hate to see it, but a resident will never hear me complain about him shooting what makes him happy or shooting a small buck for meat. Hell, he lives and pays taxes in the state year round.

A rookie or inexperienced non resident won't hear me say much about him shooting a young buck or two as he gains experience and gets a few kills under his belt.

I do hope that all hunters will grow to appreciate hunting in Montana and make future decisions on what to kill based on what's good for the deer and hunting in general. If you never lose the "I gotta kill something" attitude, you are missing so much more about hunting in general.

I also don't buy the crap about doing it for the meat. Deer meat is okay, but no one in his right mind would buy a $ 800.00 tag plus travel expenses to get 100lbs of marginal meat. Way cheaper to stay home and eat steak.

Being able to buy multiple doe tags is the fault of FWP, no question. But buying them to go slaughter does "for the meat" when the deer are hurting is just killing to be killing. Just because somethings legal doesn't mean you should do it.

The sad fact is there's more and more pressure on an ever shrinking resource. If everyone doesn't wake the hell up, it's only going to get even worse.

I'll also say this to other members here, if you post pictures and hunt recaps, you are saying " hey look at me". You are going to get comments both good and bad. The animal you post and are so proud of may be considered a "dink" to others and a prime example of why Montana's deer are in trouble.

I'm 62 years old and have shot some dinks myself years ago. But no more or ever again. I will throw a tag in the trash before I take an animal just to kill something or feel I have to apologize for. I hunt for me and have nothing to prove to anyone.

The FWP could sell unlimited tags if everyone limited themselves to taking only truly mature bucks. The spindly 2-3 year old buck you kill will never grow into a real trophy.

And before people scream about the pressure this attitude would put on old bucks or that hunting during the rut is to blame etc., if hunters quit killing immature bucks and slaughtering does we would not be where we are. I just hope FWP wakes up and protects us from ourselves.

 

[MT-nuffgun]

This pertains mostly to Montana but may be valid elsewhere:

I hate to see it, but a resident will never hear me complain about him shooting what makes him happy or shooting a small buck for meat. Hell, he lives and pays taxes in the state year round.

A rookie or inexperienced non resident won't hear me say much about him shooting a young buck or two as he gains experience and gets a few kills under his belt.

I do hope that all hunters will grow to appreciate hunting in Montana and make future decisions on what to kill based on what's good for the deer and hunting in general. If you never lose the "I gotta kill something" attitude, you are missing so much more about hunting in general.

I also don't buy the crap about doing it for the meat. Deer meat is okay, but no one in his right mind would buy a $ 800.00 tag plus travel expenses to get 100lbs of marginal meat. Way cheaper to stay home and eat steak.

Being able to buy multiple doe tags is the fault of FWP, no question. But buying them to go slaughter does "for the meat" when the deer are hurting is just killing to be killing. Just because somethings legal doesn't mean you should do it.

The sad fact is there's more and more pressure on an ever shrinking resource. If everyone doesn't wake the hell up, it's only going to get even worse.

I'll also say this to other members here, if you post pictures and hunt recaps, you are saying " hey look at me". You are going to get comments both good and bad. The animal you post and are so proud of may be considered a "dink" to others and a prime example of why Montana's deer are in trouble.

I'm 62 years old and have shot some dinks myself years ago. But no more or ever again. I will throw a tag in the trash before I take an animal just to kill something or feel I have to apologize for. I hunt for me and have nothing to prove to anyone.

The FWP could sell unlimited tags if everyone limited themselves to taking only truly mature bucks. The spindly 2-3 year old buck you kill will never grow into a real trophy.

And before people scream about the pressure this attitude would put on old bucks or that hunting during the rut is to blame etc., if hunters quit killing immature bucks and slaughtering does we would not be where we are. I just hope FWP wakes up and protects us from ourselves.

As a resident I personally would give away my odds in a proposed draw system to the point I only got to hunt bucks every 2 or 3 years if it meant I got to see more mature bucks on the landscape. I know a lot of residents including myself that eat our general tags some years because we are not interested in killing immature bucks. I run into alot of nonresident deer hunters every year in the area I hunt and I rarely see them harvest a mule deer buck that would score higher than 110” gross or is an older deer. It just sucks to look at what Montana could be vs what it actually is. The slaughter needs to stop, I cant believe that FWP can look at the nonresident buck harvest numbers in region 6&7 that they themselves came up with and think that is all fine and dandy. It’s a joke.

 

[willfrye027]

As a resident I personally would give away my odds in a proposed draw system to the point I only got to hunt bucks every 2 or 3 years if it meant I got to see more mature bucks on the landscape. I know a lot of residents including myself that eat our general tags some years because we are not interested in killing immature bucks. I run into alot of nonresident deer hunters every year in the area I hunt and I rarely see them harvest a mule deer buck that would score higher than 110” gross or is an older deer. It just sucks to look at what Montana could be vs what it actually is. The slaughter needs to stop, I cant believe that FWP can look at the nonresident buck harvest numbers in region 6&7 that they themselves came up with and think that is all fine and dandy. It’s a joke.

Careful what you wish for. It starts at 2-3 years to get a tag and will end up being every 10 years quickly.

 

[S.Clancy]

Careful what you wish for. It starts at 2-3 years to get a tag and will end up being every 10 years quickly.

Curious, in what state is it every 10? Or even, every 2 or 3? In my mind the worst possible state for tag allocation is UT, and residents can still hunt every year or every other year depending on the unit. If MT went to all draw (I am not advocating that) we would still be able every year, just not maybe the one you want.

 

[willfrye027]

Curious, in what state is it every 10? Or even, every 2 or 3? In my mind the worst possible state for tag allocation is UT, and residents can still hunt every year or every other year depending on the unit. If MT went to all draw (I am not advocating that) we would still be able every year, just not maybe the one you want.

One of my favorite units in CA has climbed from 2-3 points to now 9-10. Lots of units in CO. Region G and soon H in Wyoming. The odds on preference point units almost never get better over time. And the hunting certainly isn’t getting any better!!

Honestly if Montana guys want to see some bigger bucks they should advocate for no rut hunting; that might actually make a difference. But then again guys will most likely NOT be seeing as many bucks (because it isn’t the rut), piss and moan, and be in the same situation.

If you went to limited, or draw..the average buck size might go up a little but those bucks are still going to be killed by hunters. You won’t magically have a bunch of 180” bucks running around. They’ll be getting killed as a 140” or even a 3pt by the guys who were happy to shoot a forky in the first place.

 

[S.Clancy]

One of my favorite units in CA has climbed from 2-3 points to now 9-10. Lots of units in CO. Region G and soon H in Wyoming. The odds on preference point units almost never get better over time. And the hunting certainly isn’t getting any better!!

Honestly if Montana guys want to see some bigger bucks they should advocate for no rut hunting; that might actually make a difference. But then again guys will most likely NOT be seeing as many bucks (because it isn’t the rut), piss and moan, and be in the same situation.

If you went to limited, or draw..the average buck size might go up a little but those bucks are still going to be killed by hunters. You won’t magically have a bunch of 180” bucks running around. They’ll be getting killed as a 140” or even a 3pt by the guys who were happy to shoot a forky in the first place.

I guess my point was you can still hunt WY or CA (using your 2 states) every yr, just not the units you want.

I am definitely not pushing for limited entry only in MT. I would be fine with no November deer hunting. I very rarely hunt the peak rut anymore, this year being an exception. I'm not sure that solves the "no big buck problem" tho. You need habitat for that.

 

[willfrye027]

I guess my point was you can still hunt WY or CA (using your 2 states) every yr, just not the units you want.

I am definitely not pushing for limited entry only in MT. I would be fine with no November deer hunting. I very rarely hunt the peak rut anymore, this year being an exception. I'm not sure that solves the "no big buck problem" tho. You need habitat for that.

That’s true, and I do get tags and hunt multiple states. It’s just harder and harder to get good or decent tags. I’m not a Montana resident and not particularly invested in deer hunting there. But I think the residents would end up overwhelmingly unhappy in the long run going to a draw..same as Idaho.

Habitat and weather absolutely. It’s not the draw/point creeps fault that deer hunting sucks right now…but the draw is not helping, it just makes it harder to hunt consistently while doing nothing measurable for quality (in my opinion).

 

[KurtR]

Curious, in what state is it every 10? Or even, every 2 or 3? In my mind the worst possible state for tag allocation is UT, and residents can still hunt every year or every other year depending on the unit. If MT went to all draw (I am not advocating that) we would still be able every year, just not maybe the one you want.

North dakota the residents wait for ever for a muley tag

 

[robby denning]

Residents in Utah are seeing more years between tags too, especially in certain regions. Many don't even refer to the general tag as "general" any more. @CorbLand can enlighten more, he lives there.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I would be fine with no November deer hunting. I very rarely hunt the peak rut anymore, this year being an exception. I'm not sure that solves the "no big buck problem" tho. You need habitat for that.

Colorado has some of the best muley habitat on earth and they've smashed the older age class bucks with a pile of tags all throughout November. Habitat cannot overcome poor management.

 

[S.Clancy]

Colorado has some of the best muley habitat on earth and they've smashed the older age class bucks with a pile of tags all throughout November. Habitat cannot overcome poor management.

So you are saying you would rather hunt a highly managed area with terrible habitat than an area with primo habitat that is poorly managed?

I am taking the primo habitat every single time. Some percentage of those bucks are going to figure it out and get to 4, 5, 6 yrs old and be donkeys.