Who can ask for your proof of suppressor ownership?

[Ucsdryder]

Ok. How do you protect them when they leave your house then?

Again, interestingly the “group” that bemoans the most over “safe spaces”, “participation trophy’s”, “triggers”, etc.- are also the very same ones that do everything they can to shield them from any/all discomfort and any chance to learn to deal with adversity; yet are also generally the first to yell at clouds about how no one does the right thing.




This is a fallacy. What’s right or moral, does not change due to fear or convenience. I do not allows warranties searches- whether of my house, vehicle, or “suppressor”.

Do you have kids?

 

[rbutcher1234]

Don’t hide behind your kids as an excuse to cave on morals. Unless you never had those morals to begin with.

The table stakes don’t change based on what you think is convinient.

Edit: what would this hypothetical scenario teach your daughter about authority, laws, moral fortitude, and how to navigate the world when someone tries to violate her rights or take advantage of her?

 

[JohnJohnson]

It isn’t a “fight”. It’s a simple- “do you have a warrant?” “No?, then no sir/maam, I will not show you my stamp”.

That’s it.

It's a confrontation against someone who is probably going to react badly to being told they don't have the power they think they do. And who has quasi-legal power over you. Not in the sense of them actually having the authority to ask for it, but being largely insulated from consequences if they escalate the situation to make your life miserable. If you've got the rest of your day free and no kid who's going to get traumatized by the situation, go for it.

I'd love it if there was a way to actually hold them accountable outside of wasting their (paid for) time.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Insanity.

If I’m at the grocery store with my small child and I see a robbery am I going to pull my ccw and engage because obviously hiding behind kids isn’t an option and morals are everything.

I’ll say with the utmost confidence that my outlook changed on most things when I had kids and my attitude when I’m with my kids is different than without. Apparently I don’t have morals because of it.

 

[Ucsdryder]

It's a confrontation against someone who is probably going to react badly to being told they don't have the power they think they do. And who has quasi-legal power over you. Not in the sense of them actually having the authority to ask for it, but being largely insulated from consequences if they escalate the situation to make your life miserable. If you've got the rest of your day free and no kid who's going to get traumatized by the situation, go for it.

I'd love it if there was a way to actually hold them accountable outside of wasting their (paid for) time.

Well said.

 

[kthomas]

Technically only the ATF. It's a tax document.

The verbiage is a bit unclear, as it states you have to provide proof of ownership/compliance (i.e. the tax stamp/document) upon request. There is debate over whether that means immediately, or if its something you can follow up with them about once asked.

I don't think just any LE can actually demand you provide proof of ownership. However, they may think differently (despite them being wrong), and make it a hassle for you. Some areas in the US will be much worse than others. I don't think my local sheriffs department could care less about this sort of thing. Other parts of the US you may have a target on you immediately when they see a suppressor, even if they don't legally have any authority in that domain.

Personally its not something I worry about. I'm in compliance, and if they need proof (if they are ATF), then I can follow up with them later to show proof. I'm not a slave, and I'm not worried about having to produce papers immediately.

 

[Formidilosus]

It's a confrontation against someone who is probably going to react badly to being told they don't have the power they think they do. And who has quasi-legal power over you. Not in the sense of them actually having the authority to ask for it, but being largely insulated from consequences if they escalate the situation to make your life miserable. If you've got the rest of your day free

So what? It’s a day.

and no kid who's going to get traumatized by the situation, go for it.

So daddy saying no, and explaining why he isn’t allowing something unlawful to happen is “traumatizing”?

I'd love it if there was a way to actually hold them accountable outside of wasting their (paid for) time.

Except that if every time (or even frequently) people do the, you know- right thing and said “no”, pretty soon he/they would stop.

 

[kthomas]

Hell, occasionally at a range a range officer will ask to see your stamp here on the east coast. Once again they have no authority and are absolute goons for doing it, but it's private property. So you can show it or leave in that situation. I've had to show my tax stamp to an RO twice I think.

That would really piss me off.

Why would they care about that one item/legal issue? Do they want to check your drivers license to make sure you didn't break any laws getting to and from the property? Check to make sure you have adequate registration and insurance? Check you federal taxes, so you are in compliance there?

I'm a really nice guy, but that would piss me off. It's not their job to determine if what I'm doing is legal or not. There are all sorts of laws you may be in violation of when on their property - but its none of their damn business.

 

[Formidilosus]

Insanity.

If I’m at the grocery store with my small child and I see a robbery am I going to pull my ccw and engage because obviously hiding behind kids isn’t an option and morals are everything.

Hmmm. What if I were at the grocery store and saw a robber, and I ran away because “I have kids to provide for”, and your child ended up getting harmed or killed after I left- would you rather have intervened?

I’ll say with the utmost confidence that my outlook changed on most things when I had kids and my attitude when I’m with my kids is different than without. Apparently I don’t have morals because of it.

Point in fact- that means you don’t. If simply having kids changes what is right or wrong, and your compliance with no resistance at all, it does in fact mean those morals weren’t real to begin with.


I think it would help if you read my responses without insult- I am asking out of curiosity.

 

[kthomas]

So I was told by guys at Mile high shooting. They said only ATF agent and IRS agents can demand to see proof.

He said game wardens and other LEOs can’t demand it. Dont have to show them.


If asked I would show my proof. But this is just what I was told.

This is the correct answer.

 

[kthomas]

It's a confrontation against someone who is probably going to react badly to being told they don't have the power they think they do. And who has quasi-legal power over you. Not in the sense of them actually having the authority to ask for it, but being largely insulated from consequences if they escalate the situation to make your life miserable. If you've got the rest of your day free and no kid who's going to get traumatized by the situation, go for it.

I'd love it if there was a way to actually hold them accountable outside of wasting their (paid for) time.

It's up to the individual for how they want to respond.

But people should know they don't have to comply, unless ATF/IRS.

You also don't have to submit to the LEO searching your house without a warrant. You could let them, and that's up to you. But you don't have to (and definitely shouldn't) without a warrant.

 

[kthomas]

I will finish by saying that I've personally never have encountered an IRS or ATF agent in the wild, especially when in the possession of my suppressor.

I don't stress out about having my papers on me or not. I may, or I may not. And if the day comes that I happen to run into the ATF/IRS out in the wild with my suppressor, I will kindly inform them that I will follow up with them and show them proof of legal possession at a future date, when I can present my papers.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Technically only the ATF IRS. It's a tax document.

Fixed it. This is what the ATF told me, that the only legal entity that can ask for and enforce seeing your tax stamp is the IRS. ATF can't ask for it, but they can seize it if they feel it is in question. It's a grey area.

 

[kthomas]

Fixed it. This is what the ATF told me, that the only legal entity that can ask for and enforce seeing your tax stamp is the IRS. ATF can't ask for it, but they can seize it if they feel it is in question. It's a grey area.

Good to know, thanks for that clarification!

 

[Ucsdryder]

Hmmm. What if I were at the grocery store and saw a robber, and I ran away because “I have kids to provide for”, and your child ended up getting harmed or killed after I left- would you rather have intervened?






Point in fact- that means you don’t. If simply having kids changes what is right or wrong, and your compliance with no resistance at all, it does in fact mean those morals weren’t real to begin with.


I think it would help if you read my responses without insult- I am asking out of curiosity.

Based on the fact you won’t ander my question I’ll assume you don’t have kids. My sister was the expert before she had kids. She used to tell me all the ways to do things.

I’ll let you guess what happened when she had kids. You know your rifles because you live it, but sometimes people need to stay in their lane. I act different when my kids are around and when they aren’t. I’d venture to say every person I know, friends and family do the same.

You’re wrong. I know that’s hard for you to admit, especially on here, but it’s true.

I’ll bow out of this going forward, nothing good comes from an internet argument and nobody ever changes their mind.

 

[Axlrod]

I went through a game check station last fall. My gun/can were strapped to my pack on my front seat. I had both windows open, as it was warm out. Several game wardens were there. They asked lots of questions, about make and model, price, how well it worked. How hard was the process to get it etc.

As for local LEO's, 3 of them are my BIL's, and from the sheriff on down I know most of the them pretty well. Prob. a half a dozen local LEO's and several state troopers I know have silencers of their own. Also when you submit to the ATF, they notify the local sheriff that you have applied.
Just isn't a big deal here.

But they are my tax stamps, only people I would show them to are the people I got them from- the ATF.
Never seen one out hunting or shooting though.

 

[Formidilosus]

Based on the fact you won’t ander my question I’ll assume you don’t have kids. My sister was the expert before she had kids. She used to tell me all the ways to do things.

You can assume whatever you want- if you read anything I have written on here you would know that I don’t engage with fallacies.

Simply that “changing” because you have kids means that it wasn’t real to begin with, and using them as a scapegoat is just that- an excuse.

I’ll let you guess what happened when she had kids. You know your rifles because you live it, but sometimes people need to stay in their lane. I act different when my kids are around and when they aren’t. I’d venture to say every person I know, friends and family do the same.

Then I would say (with no malice) that you know very weak people. Literally no one in my life changed or changes with their children around- point in fact most double down on “do the right thing” in their own actions- some spectacularly so.

Allowing a bully (in this case a warrant less search) to happen because of the fragility of your children, just means they will be fragile. Children don’t need absolute protection from every inconvenience or stressor- they need role models.

You’re wrong. I know that’s hard for you to admit, especially on here, but it’s true.

You know nothing about me. I have done a lot more than say “no” to a warrantless search of a suppressor with children holding my hand. A child that is so fragile that they can’t see dad/mom/uncle/aunt stand up for what’s lawful or correct, is a child that will have lots of issues with the rest of their life.

I’ll bow out of this going forward, nothing good comes from an internet argument and nobody ever changes their mind.

It’s only an argument if you make it one- I asked questions because I was curious about your thought process and response. You didn’t engage on your thought process part, but you did on the response part. Thank you.

 

[2buffalo]

If you've got the rest of your day free and no kid who's going to get traumatized by the situation, go for it.

I would substitute "get traumatized by the situation" with learn from the situation. Keeping kids from uncomfortable situations that are just is doing them no favors. Sheltering kids from uncomfortable situations does nothing to teach them how to deal with them.

 

[Ucsdryder]

You can assume whatever you want- if you read anything I have written on here you would know that I don’t engage with fallacies.

Simply that “changing” because you have kids means that it wasn’t real to begin with, and using them as a scapegoat is just that- an excuse.




Then I would say (with no malice) that you know very weak people. Literally no one in my life changed or changes with their children around- point in fact most double down on “do the right thing” in their own actions- some spectacularly so.

Allowing a bully (in this case a warrant less search) to happen because of the fragility of your children, just means they will be fragile. Children don’t need absolute protection from every inconvenience or stressor- they need role models.






You know nothing about me. I have done a lot more than say “no” to a warrantless search of a suppressor with children holding my hand. A child that is so fragile that they can’t see dad/mom/uncle/aunt stand up for what’s lawful or correct, is a child that will have lots of issues with the rest of their life.





It’s only an argument if you make it one- I asked questions because I was curious about your thought process and response. You didn’t engage on your thought process part, but you did on the response part. Thank you.

Retracted

 

[GreyBeck]

the “proof” is your tax stamp - a copy is easily saved on your phone.

More strange is if it’s held in a trust the “proof” then is a pic/pdf/scanned copy of your notarized appointment of a trustee. It’s not on file with any authority anywhere.

In either case how could it be verified by anyone?

I’m expecting to be asked about rifle and suppressor proof of ownership when returning from out of the country. I’ll have copies on my phone - perhaps a hard copy too. I’ll show whomever asks. And my son will have the Assignment of Trustee form on his phone for when I’m not with him as the tax stamp is not in his name.