Whitetail arrow weight for new set-up

[Bigolbill]

Good afternoon everyone, hope this season is going well for you.

Switched up a little bit this year, experimenting with a new set-up.

• Mathews V3X 33"
• 29" Draw
• 70# draw weight
• Easton 5mm Axis @ 29 3/4" 300 spine
• Currently trying out 100 gr. Magnus Stingers
• Arrow weight approx. 446 gr. w/ 9.9% FOC

Ideally I want to shoot for around 14-16% FOC, I also want to consider arrow weight. I'm sure that this set-up as it stands is absolutely capable of taking down a whitetail. However, for me (and probably many of you here), I enjoy tinkering with the intricacies that archery provides. This means half of the fun of archery in my case, is how you can try 100 different things and even if they all work, still try to aim for "better."

So to sum it up, as far as arrow weight goes, should I get much heavier than this? Most of my shots will be >40.
To get to 14-16% FOC, broadheads or inserts first? Open to any and all recommendations.

TIA!

 

[Mighty Mouse]

The most important thing to know about FOC is that it's not that important. If your current setup is working well, there's no reason to change anything in pursuit of higher FOC. That said, I understand the impulse to tinker, so I'll humor you with my thoughts.

5mm Axis is a fairly dense shaft (9.5 gpi at 340 spine, which is what I assume you're currently shooting based on the info provided). If you're serious about boosting FOC while keeping TAW reasonable, you probably need to look at a lower gpi shaft.

Shortening your arrow shaft will increase FOC. If you trimmed your current arrows down to 28" and switched from 100 to 125 gr heads, you would gain around 2.5% of FOC and keep TAW nearly the same.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Thats good,no need for anything heavier.

 

[Donjuan]

Put it where it needs to be and the only 2 things you'll need will be a sharp knife and a hot grill

 

[Bigolbill]

The most important thing to know about FOC is that it's not that important. If your current setup is working well, there's no reason to change anything in pursuit of higher FOC. That said, I understand the impulse to tinker, so I'll humor you with my thoughts.

5mm Axis is a fairly dense shaft (9.5 gpi at 340 spine, which is what I assume you're currently shooting based on the info provided). If you're serious about boosting FOC while keeping TAW reasonable, you probably need to look at a lower gpi shaft.

Shortening your arrow shaft will increase FOC. If you trimmed your current arrows down to 28" and switched from 100 to 125 gr heads, you would gain around 2.5% of FOC and keep TAW nearly the same.
View attachment 464316

Sorry, updated the post with arrow spine. 300 spine 5mm axis.

Per Easton’s website, 10.7 GPI. Nock at 9 gr & insert at 16 gr.
Unfortunately with the 29” draw, I don’t think I can shorten the arrows at all. 28” would probably not sit in my rest.

Along with that, what would you consider a “reasonable arrow weight”?

 

[Macintosh]

Reasonable weight is whatever gets you a trajectory you find acceptable. Imo you have 75grains or so of total arrow weight before the heavy-arrow/high foc crowd starts thinking of your setup as a “heavy arrow”.

 

[Bigolbill]

Reasonable weight is whatever gets you a trajectory you find acceptable. Imo you have 75grains or so of total arrow weight before the heavy-arrow/high foc crowd starts thinking of your setup as a “heavy arrow”.

Gotcha, I’m not interested in getting into the semantics of what’s heavy vs. light per one crowd or another. I’m more interested in how you put it, “acceptable trajectory.”

Most of my shots are going to be like I said, >40 yards out. I guess I’ll just have to play around with it until I’m happy with it. I would like to boost my FOC a little though, would you go insert or broadhead weight first?

 

[Macintosh]

Cant help you there. What I can tell you is that in my 60# setup, above about 550 grains was where I noticed trajectory fall off to the point where I felt it would create a bad hit or miss due to a small ranging error within my max hunting range. Situation such as a deer walks up a road and Ive ranged the opposite bank of the road, so deer is actually a couple yards closer, etc.

 

[Skerhunter]

I would stay where you are at - if you increase your FOC much you will be flirting with being underspined at ~29" and 70lbs. If you could shorten your arrow an inch you could use a brass insert or heavier broadhead an be OK if you stay under 50 grains.

 

[Macintosh]

If you are interested, there was a recent meateater podcast with the guy from iron will broadheads where he talks about this tradeoff. he had some good things to say about foc and arrow weight that were more than just opinion.

Edit: I thought I had seen a thread talking about meateater purchasing Iron will, but I can’t find it now. It’s been quoted below but I am editing this to reflect because I don’t want to start a vicious rumor.

 

[WVHick]

If you are interested, there was a recent meateater podcast with the guy from iron will broadheads where he talks about this tradeoff. I know they just purchased iron will and its heavy on the marketing, but he had some good things to say about foc and arrow weight that were more than just opinion.

MeatEater purchased Iron Will? Do you have a source?

 

[Bigolbill]

If you are interested, there was a recent meateater podcast with the guy from iron will broadheads where he talks about this tradeoff. I know they just purchased iron will and its heavy on the marketing, but he had some good things to say about foc and arrow weight that were more than just opinion.

This is literally what got me thinking about my FOC. I enjoyed hearing Bill from Iron Will, an actual mechanical engineer contradict a lot of the Ranch Fairy & Dr. Ashby information that didn’t have a lot of substance. In that podcast he mentioned ideal FOC is around 14-16%(I believe)

 

[Bigolbill]

I would stay where you are at - if you increase your FOC much you will be flirting with being underspined at ~29" and 70lbs. If you could shorten your arrow an inch you could use a brass insert or heavier broadhead an be OK if you stay under 50 grains.

So if I went much heavier, I’d need to drop to like a 260 grain arrow?

 

[Billy Goat]

Sorry, updated the post with arrow spine. 300 spine 5mm axis.

Per Easton’s website, 10.7 GPI. Nock at 9 gr & insert at 16 gr.
Unfortunately with the 29” draw, I don’t think I can shorten the arrows at all. 28” would probably not sit in my rest.

Along with that, what would you consider a “reasonable arrow weight”?

Do you know where your arrows fall currently?

You understand that on a 29" draw, a 29" arrow is going to be infront of the riser?

Your draw length is measured from the throat of the grip, to the string, plus 1 3/4". Most bows anymore don't have 1 3/4 from the throat to front of the riser anymore.

So if you are using carbon to carbon for a shaft length, then have another 3/8 for a nock, generally 2" off tge draw length will put the shaft about the Berger hole. Now it becomes a personal decision to where you want a broadhead, some like it way out front, some don't worry.

Just saying I don't believe your rest is going to be a limiting factor for arrow length unless you try to get below 27".

Keep in mind foc is largely controlled by arrow length, thus why I don't think its nearly as important as people make it out to be. Easton has long recommended 10%+ for a hunting arrow, 7% for target. I suspect that nobody has yet come close to the money spent on research and design as they have.

If it were me I think I'd do exactly what @Mighty Mouse suggested. Cut a little shaft off, increase to a 125 head and roll with it.

 

[wind gypsy]

Sorry, updated the post with arrow spine. 300 spine 5mm axis.

Per Easton’s website, 10.7 GPI. Nock at 9 gr & insert at 16 gr.
Unfortunately with the 29” draw, I don’t think I can shorten the arrows at all. 28” would probably not sit in my rest.

Along with that, what would you consider a “reasonable arrow weight”?

I shoot 27.5" carbon to carbon arrows with a 29" draw.

I think you would be fine with 300 spine with a little more weight up front but shorten the arrow. My arrow setup is 300 spine Rampages, 27.5" carbon length, 50 or 75 grain HIT inserts, and 100 grain head. I typically have draw weight in mid 60s though but 300 spine seems like it's plenty for a little more point weight @ 29" draw, 70#. HITs (vs broadhead) and shorter arrow weight help a little with stiffening spine.

 

[Skerhunter]

So if I went much heavier, I’d need to drop to like a 260 grain arrow?

Correct - your arrow length and draw weight will put you right on the line. Decrease arrow length, draw weight, or use a 260 spine before you add more weight to the front. Your current specs are totally fine for deer hunting!

 

[Bigolbill]

Do you know where your arrows fall currently?

You understand that on a 29" draw, a 29" arrow is going to be infront of the riser?

Your draw length is measured from the throat of the grip, to the string, plus 1 3/4". Most bows anymore don't have 1 3/4 from the throat to front of the riser anymore.

So if you are using carbon to carbon for a shaft length, then have another 3/8 for a nock, generally 2" off tge draw length will put the shaft about the Berger hole. Now it becomes a personal decision to where you want a broadhead, some like it way out front, some don't worry.

Just saying I don't believe your rest is going to be a limiting factor for arrow length unless you try to get below 27".

Keep in mind foc is largely controlled by arrow length, thus why I don't think its nearly as important as people make it out to be. Easton has long recommended 10%+ for a hunting arrow, 7% for target. I suspect that nobody has yet come close to the money spent on research and design as they have.

If it were me I think I'd do exactly what @Mighty Mouse suggested. Cut a little shaft off, increase to a 125 head and roll with it.

I’ll have to check again when I’m home, at draw where my arrows sitting. But you’re right, I was thinking more about riser position in front of the rest than the actual rest. I’ll post a picture later of the arrow drawn back at full draw.

 

[Bigolbill]

I assume people are saying 28" carbon to carbon length. Draw length is string to grip dimension. Your rest sits closer to the string than the grip and your nock adds a little length between string and start of carbon. I shoot 27.5" carbon to carbon arrows with a 29" draw.

I think you would be fine with 300 spine with a little more weight up front but shorten the arrow. My arrow setup is 300 spine Rampages, 27.5" carbon length, 50 or 75 grain HIT inserts, and 100 grain head. I typically have draw weight in mid 60s though but 300 spine seems like it's plenty for a little more point weight @ 29" draw, 70#. HITs (vs broadhead) and shorter arrow weight help a little with stiffening spine.

I’m just going to save myself a lot of fumbled words and just post pictures of my arrow measurements after work. That way, people who are much more experienced with this can have an actual reference instead of mincing my words with archery ignorance lol.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Sorry, updated the post with arrow spine. 300 spine 5mm axis.

Per Easton’s website, 10.7 GPI. Nock at 9 gr & insert at 16 gr.

To get to the low end of your desired FOC range, you'll need around 175 gr total on the front end of a 300 spine 5mm Axis at 29.75" carbon-to-carbon length. By the way, your current TAW calculation seems to be excluding vane weight (29.75" shaft @ 10.7 gpi + 16 gr insert + 100 gr head + 9 gr nock = 443 gr). Three 2" Bully vanes (which I think is the standard factory fletching for Axis arrows) would add about 20 gr combined.

Unfortunately with the 29” draw, I don’t think I can shorten the arrows at all. 28” would probably not sit in my rest.

Draw length is measured in front of the riser and most modern rests sit well behind the riser, so you should have plenty of room to trim your arrows. Look at where your 29.75" arrow contacts the rest at full draw; there should be quite a bit sticking out in front of the rest.

Along with that, what would you consider a “reasonable arrow weight”?

Reasonable was a poor choice of words on my part; any arrow that you can consistently put where you aim at the distances you want to shoot is reasonable. There's no definitive sweet spot, just a continuous trade-off between the greater penetration potential of a heavier/slower arrow and the flatter trajectory of a lighter/faster arrow. 450-500 gr is a good TAW range for most hunters IMO.

 

[Bigolbill]

To get to the low end of your desired FOC range, you'll need around 175 gr total on the front end of a 300 spine 5mm Axis at 29.75" carbon-to-carbon length. By the way, your current TAW calculation seems to be excluding vane weight (29.75" shaft @ 10.7 gpi + 16 gr insert + 100 gr head + 9 gr nock = 443 gr). Three 2" Bully vanes (which I think is the standard factory fletching for Axis arrows) would add about 20 gr combined.

Correct, I didn’t have the information on the vanes so I’m glad you helped out there. So as it stands I’m around 463 gr TAW?

View attachment 464464

Draw length is measured in front of the riser and most modern rests sit well behind the riser, so you should have plenty of room to trim your arrows. Look at where your 29.75" arrow contacts the rest at full draw; there should be quite a bit sticking out in front of the rest.

As I’ve replied to a few other posts, I’m going off of my measured draw length from an archery shop (wingspan/2.5.) I will be taking a photo after work of my bow at full draw with an arrow for reference.

Reasonable was a poor choice of words on my part; any arrow that you can consistently put where you aim is reasonable. There's no definitive sweet spot, just a continuous trade-off between the greater penetration potential of a heavier/slower arrow and the flatter trajectory of a lighter/faster arrow. 450-500 gr is a good TAW range for most hunters IMO.

So my set up right now (minus desired FOC) is ideal, in your opinion. This is where the other members are saying to cut weight in other areas i.e. shaft length, spine, bow poundage in order to maintain an ideal “safe” TAW if I want to shoot for 14-16% FOC.