When to hold vs when to dial?

[Lawnboi]

I wasn't asking about what your SO uses on you in the privacy of your home.

Your previous post could be interpreted that only rifles MOA scopes have a cone while rifles with MIL scopes do not.

Your previous post could be interpreted that only MIL scopes could be dialed and not MOA scopes.

Your previous post could be interpreted that if you hold on fur with a MOA scope you are likely to miss but that would be a non-issue doing the same with a MIL scope.

I think you misread.

The angular measurement unit dosnt matter in this instance.

 

[Oakman]

In a hunting situation, we usually only get one shot, so dialing for accuracy is critical to avoid any deviation from the target. There’s rarely a second chance.
On the other hand, with target shooting, you can try and hold over then see where your shot lands and adjust accordingly. And if you’ve got a spotter helping you call shots in that scenario, even better

 

[nuffgun]

In a hunting situation, we usually only get one shot, so dialing for accuracy is critical to avoid any deviation from the target. There’s rarely a second chance.
On the other hand, with target shooting, you can try and hold over then see where your shot lands and adjust accordingly. And if you’ve got a spotter helping you call shots in that scenario, even better

The hunting scenarios you encounter must be totally different than the ones I seem to have. Many times I find myself in a situation where you have 15 seconds to range (or not), figure out a shooting position, and fire a shot or the opportunity is lost. If it’s under 300 yards and I’m limited on time, I’m not dialing…Period. A scenario I ran into last season was a rut mule deer hunt. Two bucks dogging one hot doe on public heading toward private. I had to cut across two draws to close the distance to a comfortable shooting range. As I topped the last ridge the bucks were 150 yards shy of the private land fence and closing fast. I threw my pack down and got into position behind it, yelled at the top of my lungs to stop them, (guessed the shot distance around 200 yards), and dumped the buck I was after. Ranged the shot distance after the buck went down and came up with 240 yards. Similar situations happen to me all the time with mule deer, Antelope, and Elk. Dialing is definitely more accurate but we have to be realistic as well. I have no problems holding over on half mil hash marks and executing accurate shots on target out to 300 yards.As I said previously, the few shots I have taken over 300 yards, I had time to dial. For whatever reason, when I am under 300 yards from my target animal, things seem to escalate fast from time to time.

 

[Oakman]

The hunting scenarios you encounter must be totally different than the ones I seem to have. Many times I find myself in a situation where you have 15 seconds to range (or not), figure out a shooting position, and fire a shot or the opportunity is lost. If it’s under 300 yards and I’m limited on time, I’m not dialing…Period. A scenario I ran into last season was a rut mule deer hunt. Two bucks dogging one hot doe on public heading toward private. I had to cut across two draws to close the distance to a comfortable shooting range. As I topped the last ridge the bucks were 150 yards shy of the private land fence and closing fast. I threw my pack down and got into position behind it, yelled at the top of my lungs to stop them, (guessed the shot distance around 200 yards), and dumped the buck I was after. Ranged the shot distance after the buck went down and came up with 240 yards. Similar situations happen to me all the time with mule deer, Antelope, and Elk. Dialing is definitely more accurate but we have to be realistic as well. I have no problems holding over on half mil hash marks and executing accurate shots on target out to 300 yards.As I said previously, the few shots I have taken over 300 yards, I had time to dial. For whatever reason, when I am under 300 yards from my target animal, things seem to escalate fast from time to time.

Thanks,
Just to clear things up, the dial I'm referring to is for longer distance shots. My rifle is zeroed at 100 yards, so there's no need to touch the dial at that range. Any adjustments I mentioned are for engaging targets at longer distance as you mentioned, also where elevation changes come into play. Hopefully that makes more sense now.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

The beauty of a scope with turrets is you can walk around with it zeroed however many yards you want, or what the conditions of the hunt you’re in. In the dense dark timber of N Idaho I like to walk around zeroed at 500 so every miss is clean.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I think you misread.

The angular measurement unit dosnt matter in this instance.

Please point out where in your post where you state that fact.

The issue using mpbr or a 200-250 yard zero for most is they assume their rifle is a laser beam and shoots the same hole.

Take that shot that’s 3” low because you just have to hold fur with your 1.5moa cone of fire rifle and your shot lands at the bottom of the cone, you better hope what your shooting at is bigger than a deer.

Or you could just dial or hold 1 mil and give yourself a lot more margin for error.

 

[Lawnboi]

Please point out where in your post where you state that fact.

The issue using mpbr or a 200-250 yard zero for most is they assume their rifle is a laser beam and shoots the same hole.

Take that shot that’s 3” low because you just have to hold fur with your 1.5moa cone of fire rifle and your shot lands at the bottom of the cone, you better hope what your shooting at is bigger than a deer.

Or you could just dial or hold 1 mil and give yourself a lot more margin for error.

I guess I’m not sure where you are going. I used moa and mil but really you could use them the other way around and it wouldn’t matter.

Typically people refer to their cone of fire in MOA, as I did above.

The hold mentioned below is just a hold. It could be one mil or 3.5 moa, no difference.


My point of the whole thing is to look at your actual cone of fire when it relates to mpbr. People assume because of the numbers your going to be x” low but in reality it can much lower from normal deviation. Look at most people’s groups at 3-400 yards.

Angular measurement dosnt matter in the context of what I’m trying to explain.

 

[wind gypsy]

Please point out where in your post where you state that fact.

The issue using mpbr or a 200-250 yard zero for most is they assume their rifle is a laser beam and shoots the same hole.

Take that shot that’s 3” low because you just have to hold fur with your 1.5moa cone of fire rifle and your shot lands at the bottom of the cone, you better hope what your shooting at is bigger than a deer.

Or you could just dial or hold 1 mil and give yourself a lot more margin for error.

I've no idea how this could be interpreted as a MOA vs MIL post. This entire thread is about when to dial vs hold over and he's pointing out built in aiming error with longer than 100 yd zeros and MPBR way of thinking.

It's not common to say my rifle my rifle has a 0.4 mil cone of fire like it is to reference rifle precision in MOA.

 

[Rich M]

You can do 350-400 yards while holding on hair with the old style 3,000 fps cartridges. Not so sure with the newer style slow bullets that float in air.

I remember a guy who didn't shoot an elk at 250 yards cause he was screwing around with dialing, then wasn't comfortable shooting prone, off his pack, or off a tree. Elk run off...

Learn yer gun, what it can do and what you can do.

 

[Oafdeputy]

Dial everything but wind lol

 

[nm.otter]

Dial everything but wind lol

With quick drop, dial everything over 350.

 

[rbutcher1234]

Those that haven’t lost an animal to time wasting dialing short distance as it slowly walks over the ridge or behind a tree, eventually will.

What is a “short distance” here? I am willing to bet on a shot timer, dialing is consistently faster at hitting vital-sized targets than holding in basically every scenario past 0.5 mil. Someone with more experience will be along to correct me I’m sure.

 

[nmarchr]

always dial

 

[BigMiss]

I am new to dialing scopes. I would classify myself as anxious about this type of thing. Constantly trying to find holes in the system I settled on and am comfortable with. Last week I found myself 215 yards from my muley buck. I set up with him facing me, ranged, and dialed to 200. I should have just held the 3" high, but I had the time, and my brain forces me to do the statistically most accurate thing I can in the moment even if it makes no practical sense. Well, after 10 minutes, he turned quickly from frontal to broadside, and I touched off my shot in panic and hit him in the spine. Ultimately, even though dialing is more precise, it had nothing to do with where I actually made impact. Ironically, if I'd not dialed and the shot broke with the crosshairs in the same spot, I would have had a better shot, animal death, and less meat loss. Point being, if you need maximum precision for your mental health, dial. If you aren't a nut like me, you will find an in-between that makes the most sense for accuracy and speed. I see no real reason to dial anything under 300 yards when most cartridges are dropping under 10".

 

[droptine818]

Dial as often as possible. If i bump something and he stops to look back I’ll hold rather than take the extra time to dial but otherwise I’m dialling

 

[Nine Banger]

With quick drop, dial everything over 350.

I'm holding 200 and 300 and then dialing.

 

[TaperPin]

What is a “short distance” here? I am willing to bet on a shot timer, dialing is consistently faster at hitting vital-sized targets than holding in basically every scenario past 0.5 mil. Someone with more experience will be along to correct me I’m sure.

I can understand how it sounds quick to always follow the same procedure, and the more someone sticks to it the faster it is, but there’s no way to range a distance out to 300 yards, dial and shoot as fast as someone can simply hold and pull the trigger. It ticks off my nephew all the time when we’re shooting rocks and he points one out, brings the range finder up to eye level for a reading about the time my rifle goes Bang Bang, dead rock.

It’s not the only way to do things, but not dialing is simply a little bit faster. I’ve lost 3 animals I’d like to have on the wall by a matter of one or two seconds, so it’s been a priority most of my adult life to speed up my process as much as possible, which includes what distance the scope is set while walking around, knowing holds instinctively to 400 yards, being good enough at estimating to 300 yards to not have to range, not getting into a slower more steady position if a less steady faster position is good enough, carrying the rifle in hand as often as possible, not zooming a scope in or out, good trigger control so the first time the crosshairs are on target the gun fires, don’t use scope caps unless conditions warrant them, and holding 2 MOA on a 10 mph wind call at all distances to 300. As much time as I’ve spent fine tuning, I’d love to find extra speed somewhere and would be the first to dial if it were as fast or faster.

Even as close as a few years ago I can’t remember any of the cool kids admitting they walk around with their scope dialed to anything other than 100 yards, but now there are plenty who follow something like I do. All my scopes, even the ones that dial, are set for 300 yards. That makes it as simple as a hand width low for 100 & 200, hand width high at 350. The crazy thing is it works with any cartridge. Check out your rifle on a ballistics program - when it’s set to 300 yards, not knowing what bullet, velocity or cartridge I could use those same holds if it were a 243 or 300 PRC.

How valuable it is kind of depends on how someone hunts. There are some kinds of hunting where it’s about as exciting as watching paint dry and shots are quite predictable and not rushed. Eastman’s video of elk hunting the Red Desert is a prime example. Meat hunting in any area with tons of animals is another. Who cares if a doe or little buck walks behind a tree, another is right around the corner. But walking a ridge in western Wyoming when a big buster buck could stand up and trot off at any minute speed matters. When a bear is moving through small openings, speed matters. If a elk walks out of the timber 300 yards away, takes a look at you walking out in the open, turns around and high tails it back in, speed matters.

Nothing I say is secret or not testable. I didn’t come up with any part of it, but combined bits and pieces of what others have done before me. Someone should shoot different scenarios for themselves and see what’s faster for them. In fact it would be much more valuable for someone to shoot it themselves rather than take the word of some random dude online.

QUICK!!! Deer about 275 just paused at a ridgetop what do you dial? I drop on my butt, hold dead on and bang bang. The other thing I do at short range is round up and not get caught up in mentally splitting a hand width in half, because it doesn’t matter at that range, and it shouldn’t matter to someone working in MILs.

 

[wapitibob]

I am new to dialing scopes. I would classify myself as anxious about this type of thing. Constantly trying to find holes in the system I settled on and am comfortable with. Last week I found myself 215 yards from my muley buck. I set up with him facing me, ranged, and dialed to 200. I should have just held the 3" high, but I had the time, and my brain forces me to do the statistically most accurate thing I can in the moment even if it makes no practical sense. Well, after 10 minutes, he turned quickly from frontal to broadside, and I touched off my shot in panic and hit him in the spine. Ultimately, even though dialing is more precise, it had nothing to do with where I actually made impact. Ironically, if I'd not dialed and the shot broke with the crosshairs in the same spot, I would have had a better shot, animal death, and less meat loss. Point being, if you need maximum precision for your mental health, dial. If you aren't a nut like me, you will find an in-between that makes the most sense for accuracy and speed. I see no real reason to dial anything under 300 yards when most cartridges are dropping under 10".

Should have shot him facing you, best shot angle there is at that distance, and zero meat loss.