When to hold vs when to dial?

[NickyD]

Learn your personal abilities and DOPE. If you’re an OK/bad shooter, adding a few inches of error at 300 yards could be a miss. For others it’s meaningless because they shoot a flat trajectory and are very accurate shots.

Focusing too much on dialing cost me an elk last year so I’m practicing my holdovers again. I’m learning to do some simple range estimates in my scope so I can make a quick decision to hold or back off so I can range and dial. Personally, I’m training for a maximum holdover of 200-250 yards, so practically just point and shoot only.

I try to keep things simple, as I tend to lose my mind when I have an animal in the crosshairs lol

 

[TaperPin]

Im not sure this is what most people mean by “holdovers”. I would describe this as a “very large MPBR-type zero combined with kentucky windage”. As I understand “holdovers” as used by most folks, that is using a non-center reticle-mark as the aiming point for any distance past your zero, ie if you zero at 100, then in a mil-dot reticle first mark is 300, 200 is halfway in between, second mark is 400, etc.

I see what you mean. I should get with the times and stop calling actually holding over holding over. Kentucky windage it is.

I’ll probably never get used to moving away from a 300 yard zero since it’s so useful for 90% of everything.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Learn your personal abilities and DOPE. If you’re an OK/bad shooter, adding a few inches of error at 300 yards could be a miss. For others it’s meaningless because they shoot a flat trajectory and are very accurate shots.

Focusing too much on dialing cost me an elk last year so I’m practicing my holdovers again. I’m learning to do some simple range estimates in my scope so I can make a quick decision to hold or back off so I can range and dial. Personally, I’m training for a maximum holdover of 200-250 yards, so practically just point and shoot only.

I try to keep things simple, as I tend to lose my mind when I have an animal in the crosshairs lol

What we’re the circumstances that dialing cost you an opportunity at an animal?

 

[digger]

Dial elevation and hold wind

 

[NickyD]

What we’re the circumstances that dialing cost you an opportunity at an animal?

Not necessarily dialing, but not being comfortable with my holdovers did. Elk was at 250 and I had a short window of opportunity.

My friend ranged him at 250 yards. I had a 100 yard zero so I felt the need to range as I didn’t have a printed dope chart, just on my rangefinder. By the time I was dialed, he was walking back into the timber. I was using a 30-06 with terrible ballistics and had become too reliant on my technology.

In reality i needed a further zero (like 200 yards) and a slight hold, if at all. Should have been a gimme shot on a decent bull for the area. Instead I ate my tag after packing my other friend’s bull out.

Lots of mistakes made in my preparation, I know….

 

[Formidilosus]

Not necessarily dialing, but not being comfortable with my holdovers did. Elk was at 250 and I had a short window of opportunity.

My friend ranged him at 250 yards. I had a 100 yard zero so I felt the need to range as I didn’t have a printed dope chart, just on my rangefinder. By the time I was dialed, he was walking back into the timber. I was using a 30-06 with terrible ballistics and had become too reliant on my technology.

In reality i needed a further zero (like 200 yards) and a slight hold, if at all. Should have been a gimme shot on a decent bull for the area. Instead I ate my tag after packing my other friend’s bull out.

Lots of mistakes made in my preparation, I know….

Nah man. In reality you needed to slightly above midline in the chest and shoot. Or hold .5 mils of elevation and shoot. A 200 yard zero isn’t saving you anything.

 

[TaperPin]

Not necessarily dialing, but not being comfortable with my holdovers did. Elk was at 250 and I had a short window of opportunity.

My friend ranged him at 250 yards. I had a 100 yard zero so I felt the need to range as I didn’t have a printed dope chart, just on my rangefinder. By the time I was dialed, he was walking back into the timber. I was using a 30-06 with terrible ballistics and had become too reliant on my technology.

In reality i needed a further zero (like 200 yards) and a slight hold, if at all. Should have been a gimme shot on a decent bull for the area. Instead I ate my tag after packing my other friend’s bull out.

Lots of mistakes made in my preparation, I know….

Don’t feel bad, many of us have done the same thing. All we can do is refine our system and practice. Years and decades later the animals that slowly walked out of view still make my stomach hurt, as I’m sure that elk still does to you.

I walk around set for 300 yards and without seeing the ballistics chart for an 06 know a 250 yard shot is half a hand width low and Bang! Bang! The real beauty of 300 yards is you aren’t more than a hand width low or high with almost any cartridge to 350 yards. If that same elk was at 350 hold a full hand width high and Bang! Bang!

. . . Give me a second and I’ll print out an ‘06 180 gr Partition @2,700 fps to see how close it would be . . .

350 is more like a hand width plus a finger.

 

[turbo406]

Depends on how much time i have but for the most part hold wind and dial elevation passed 400 yards. Inside 400 I know must of my rifle drops enough to make a good solid shot if i know the yardages. This is unfortunately why i am stuck with a 200 yard zero and MOA because i have practiced it long enough that i tried 100 yard and mils and it was like my first day

 

[NickyD]

Don’t feel bad, many of us have done the same thing. All we can do is refine our system and practice. Years and decades later the animals that slowly walked out of view still make my stomach hurt, as I’m sure that elk still does to you.

I walk around set for 300 yards and without seeing the ballistics chart for an 06 know a 250 yard shot is half a hand width low and Bang! Bang! The real beauty of 300 yards is you aren’t more than a hand width low or high with almost any cartridge to 350 yards. If that same elk was at 350 hold a full hand width high and Bang! Bang!

. . . Give me a second and I’ll print out an ‘06 180 gr Partition @2,700 fps to see how close it would be . . .

350 is more like a hand width plus a finger.


View attachment 902000

Yeah all we can do is learn from our mistakes! I’m learning my ballistics to help make holdovers simpler.

Nah man. In reality you needed to slightly above midline in the chest and shoot. Or hold .5 mils of elevation and shoot. A 200 yard zero isn’t saving you anything.

That may work for others, but I’m trying to minimize tolerance stacking and maximize simplicity.

With a 200 yard zero I’m a little over 2-3” max off 100-250 yards. With a 100 yard zero I’m 9” low at 250 yards. Add in realistic accuracy at those “longer” distances and it can (for me) lead to trouble.

Reading the reticle or trying to estimate based on the size of the animal is too much for me personally. At that point I’d just dial.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Yeah all we can do is learn from our mistakes! I’m learning my ballistics to help make holdovers simpler.



That may work for others, but I’m trying to minimize tolerance stacking and maximize simplicity.

With a 200 yard zero I’m a little over 2-3” max off 100-250 yards. With a 100 yard zero I’m 9” low at 250 yards. Add in realistic accuracy at those “longer” distances and it can (for me) lead to trouble.

Reading the reticle or trying to estimate based on the size of the animal is too much for me personally. At that point I’d just dial.

Please do a little more reading before discounting the advice you’ve been given.

A correct 100 yd zero is the way.

Lots of reading regarding on this forum regarding riflemanship, practice, field expedient methods ie quick drops and wind brackets.

 

[Bamban]

For over 40 years I’ve zeroed at 300. For everything from 243 to 270, 7 mag, creedmoor, ‘06, 300 mag, etc., it gets your point of impact dead center when holding a hand width low for 100 & 200 yards, a hand width high for 350 yards and on the back at 400 for mule deer, and past that gets dialed. Check out how well the 7 mag 300 yard zero matches this system.

For years folks acted like this was crazy talk when all everyone could think of was dialing, but now even the Hornady podcast boys let it slip they do something very similar. Millions of animals have been taken with holdovers (and unders), at the very least folks should understand how to do it well. Grab 4 cardboard boxes about 20” tall (mule deer chest depth) and spread them out every hundred yards and many hunters are surprised how easy it is to hit every one well.

Those that haven’t lost an animal to time wasting dialing short distance as it slowly walks over the ridge or behind a tree, eventually will.

I never liked maximum point blank range where the bullet impact is much further off above and below. Don’t confuse good holdovers with max point blank.

In the end whatever rules of thumb work well for you should be practiced enough to be second nature.

View attachment 901741

This^^

I set magnum hunters at 300 yards as well. That is after solid zero at 100, confirmed drops up to 750.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Yeah all we can do is learn from our mistakes! I’m learning my ballistics to help make holdovers simpler.

Holdovers with a good/known scope, mounted in good/known mounts, with a good/known reticle can work fine to certain ranges and in certain wind conditions with a practiced shooter. Folks self determination of “hold ability” is comically inaccurate when actually put to the test in the field.

That may work for others, but I’m trying to minimize tolerance stacking and maximize simplicity.

You are more than likely doing the exact opposite of what you state. What scope? What reticle? What cartridge? At what ranges? What are you using to “build your holdover chart”? What are you doing to correct for DA discrepancies from your “range” to hunting location? Etc.

With a 200 yard zero I’m a little over 2-3” max off 100-250 yards. With a 100 yard zero I’m 9” low at 250 yards. Add in realistic accuracy at those “longer” distances and it can (for me) lead to trouble.

I used to hunt this way and was effective. Before dialing scopes were a thing we used “inches” like this. There is a MUCH better way. Ask me how I know.

Reading the reticle or trying to estimate based on the size of the animal is too much for me personally. At that point I’d just dial.

Dialing, when practiced, does not add significant time to shot process in the slightest. If you are “missing an animal” because you “had to dial” you are ill prepared and ill practiced.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Depends on how much time i have but for the most part hold wind and dial elevation passed 400 yards. Inside 400 I know must of my rifle drops enough to make a good solid shot if i know the yardages. This is unfortunately why i am stuck with a 200 yard zero and MOA because i have practiced it long enough that i tried 100 yard and mils and it was like my first day

I was just like you as well and “could not change”. I won comps with 200 yard zeroes and MOA and used “inches” for decades. Killed into the hundreds of big game animals and well into the 10s of thousands of varmints using those systems…

I say that to say, spend literally 3 full 8-10 hour field days using 100 yard zero and MILs and you’ll never go back I promise.

 

[199p]

Lets be fair a getting a solid zero is very important,

I zero all mine at 100y but if im walking around in the open tops expecting a longer quick shot i will dial my scope so its at 200y to start with and then if i need to dial i can it dosnt change anything.

I found it much harder to get a solid zero at 200y

 

[turbo406]

I was just like you as well and “could not change”. I won comps with 200 yard zeroes and MOA and used “inches” for decades. Killed into the hundreds of big game animals and well into the 10s of thousands of varmints using those systems…

I say that to say, spend literally 3 full 8-10 hour field days using 100 yard zero and MILs and you’ll never go back I promise.

I just set up a rss Tikka 223 with my first mil scope, dont have many rounds through it yet but i might try to 100 yard zero with it but the mils are throwing me for a loop

 

[nm.otter]

Start here:

Post in thread 'MK5 HD vs NX8 . . Thoughts?'

Dec 29, 2021

Elevation. The idea that you’re going to be able to pull a kestrel or ballistic app out for every shot on animals is ludicrous… Unless you give up ton of opportunities. That’s not my goal. My goal is to be able kill every animal I see regardless of distance or time. And once you decide to shoot, every single thing that pulls you out of the scope, decreases the likelihood of killing that animal, or increases the likelihood of a rodeo or losing the animal with a wound.

Reducing as many variables as possible increases the hit rate. However, you have the time that the animal gives, and...

• Formidilosus

• 

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I just set up a rss Tikka 223 with my first mil scope, dont have many rounds through it yet but i might try to 100 yard zero with it but the mils are throwing me for a loop

Nice!

Are you still thinking in MILs as inches? As in 3.6” at 100 yards? That’s where lots of folks get hung up.

I’ll dig a thread up here by @Formidilosus on how to use MIL scopes and reticles and link it here.

Carefully review it and then feel free to post questions in that thread.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Nice!

Are you still thinking in MILs as inches? As in 3.6” at 100 yards? That’s where lots of folks get hung up.

I’ll dig a thread up here by @Formidilosus on how to use MIL scopes and reticles and link it here.

Carefully review it and then feel free to post questions in that thread.

This is the thread here…

Thread 'How to use a mil/mil scope-reticle, turrets and proper usage'

Jul 1, 2023

I have gotten a bunch of requests to write up a "how to" for using mil reticle scoots. In this case the SWFA Milquad reticle. It is the 6x42mm SS with MQ reticle in the pictures, however the process and use is the same as long as you have a scope who's reticle matches the turret adjustments- mil/mil or MOA/MOA. Mil/mil has some advantages, but the system works regardless.



The set up-



Tikka T3 SL in 223
SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ
Pic base and rings
Blackhills 5.56mm 77gr SMKs


Also a Leupold Mark4 12-40x60mm spotter with H32 reticle. This is not...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 77
• Forum: Optics

• 

 

[turbo406]

Awesome thanks guys, time to do some deep diving.

 

[NickyD]

Holdovers with a good/known scope, mounted in good/known mounts, with a good/known reticle can work fine to certain ranges and in certain wind conditions with a practiced shooter. Folks self determination of “hold ability” is comically inaccurate when actually put to the test in the field.

You are more than likely doing the exact opposite of what you state. What scope? What reticle? What cartridge? At what ranges? What are you using to “build your holdover chart”? What are you doing to correct for DA discrepancies from your “range” to hunting location? Etc.


I used to hunt this way and was effective. Before dialing scopes were a thing we used “inches” like this. There is a MUCH better way. Ask me how I know.

Dialing, when practiced, does not add significant time to shot process in the slightest. If you are “missing an animal” because you “had to dial” you are ill prepared and ill practiced.

A lot of good points that everyone should assess for themselves. I have a solid rifle setup and I’ve had good success confirming my DOPE with multiple calculators. My sig rangefinder seems to do a good job at accounting for DA. One negative about my setup is using SFP, so I have to work around it.

The point I was making about “missing an opportunity” is I was becoming too reliant on my technology. I should have had a better understanding of my rifle/holdovers and just taken the shot rather than messing with my rangefinder to get the perfect calculation to dial. A key point is that I had a friend already range it for me, but I didn’t know my hold/dial for what should have been a trivial shot.

To your last point of being ill-prepared and ill-practiced i totally agree. I’m working on it this year and I’m hoping others can learn from my failures! If not for that, I’d have very little to contribute here