When is a buck acceptable to shoot to preserve the deer herd? Should everybody be a trophy hunter? (Montana Rut thread carryover)

[Deucebump]

Im starting this thread to continue the conversation from the “Montana Rut” thread that got way off topic. If you wanna catch up feel free to go read that first. (Ill try to keep this relatively short)

This conversation (debate) came after several members (myself included) posted pics of Muley bucks they harvested this past season, from easten MT. None of the bucks were yearlings, and all were laughed at (by somebody now in time out) and were told we were part of the problem of low deer numbers for shooting “young dinks”. Feel free to agree or disagree if mine is a “young dink” as I will post the pic again. For myself, I am not a true trophy hunter, but I do try to shoot a respectable representaion of what I am hunting, where I am hunting. To be honest, is anybody going to public land in Eastern MT to be a “trophy hunter”? I have never shot a forky or yearling buck in any western state in my life. And I usually hunt 2-3 western states a year for big game. No, I dont “need the meat”. I love to hunt, and I love to shoot things. Thats being brutally honest. I play by the rules of the state, and legally harvest what I think is “acceptable”.

And this isnt really about MT, as I hear this from residents of every western state complianing about NR killing all of the little bucks and destroying the herd. So my question is, “What IS an acceptable buck to keep the herd healthy?” Is it now expected that all hunters become trophy hunters to please those that are? Is it wrong to want to hunt for the pleasure of hunting and filling a tag with what makes you happy? Why blame the hunters playing by the rules set the states wildlife management plan? Lets hear it!

This is the smallest buck I have ever killed in MT, and the “young dink” I was called out for being “part of the problem”.

 

[LoggerDan]

I see nothing dinky about your buck. If someone doesn’t like someone else’s buck, we’ll, that’s ok. But they don’t need to rain on someone else’s parade or berat them.

 

[LoggerDan]

I also think some of it is the new internet mentality of puffing themselves up or being sanctimonious or high and mighty so they can “appear “ better than or bigger or more whatever. Everyone wants to come off as hardcore or something, like they’re some kind of backwoods Rambo. It’s crap. Wish folks would get back to being regular joes and being polite and remember what Thumper’s ma told him, “ if you ain’t got nothing nice to say…”

 

[seww]

I was taught that one would want to leave the biggest bulls/bucks to spread their genes and focus on smaller animals. Sure, it'd be hard for any hunter to let a record buck/bull walk away, but I still believe that would be the best for the herd/population in the long run.

Maybe I'm biased, this thinking is mostly for moose, not sure if it applies to elk and deer but I don't see why it wouldn't.
Plus, younger animals have better tasting and tendering meat, imo.

 

[jmez]

Nice deer
If you are happy with the deer and it's legal then there is no problem. A spike isn't a problem if legal IMO. Shoot what makes you happy.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

 

[WCB]

I comment on your original thread and my take is the NR vs Resident take on why the bucks aren't growing to full trophy potential is B.S. as I stated the truth is MOST residents and NR are the same and will kill the same bucks regardless of residency or cost of the license.

I think where a lot of the argument especially in Eastern MT is concerned is the commenting by said hunter that "I saw no mature bucks and on the last day killed this buck because he was the most mature deer I saw." It is a common theme. With that said what is and isn't mature is dependent. Is your buck a 5 or 6 year old deer no...probably 3. Is it "mature" for Mule deer standard well...no. Is it mature deer comparably to most eastern MT bucks. probably. I don't think buck age has really any bearing on herd numbers and if it is sustainable. Now for trophy standards of course older is better. Would he of grown back forks probably not but I have seen some giant 3x3s.

Along the same lines you can't hunt for something that isn't there...so realistically right now in Eastern MT for most guys a buck like yours is on the higher end. But that prophecy is self fulfilling because that deer is getting shot 99x out of 100.

My stance on the whole thing is just don't complain or even really comment about not seeing many mature bucks then shoot a young buck just because. If you shoot a buck just say I shot this buck because I wanted to...not because of the lack of deer yada yada. At least for me that is less of a reason to shoot a deer especially a Mule deer.

I was taught that one would want to leave the biggest bulls/bucks to spread their genes and focus on smaller animals. Sure, it'd be hard for any hunter to let a record buck/bull walk away, but I still believe that would be the best for the herd/population in the long run.

This really makes no sense considering that big old bull had the same genes it did when it was a young scrub bull. It also takes many many generations to rid a population of ungulates of its genes baring mass extermination of the entire herd or very large portion of it.

 

[Dos Perros]

I have gone to eastern MT three times. The first time any 4x4 would do. This was 2018 and I hunted 2.5 days and saw a pile of deer and shot the first 4x4 I saw on public land. He was 145" ish (I forget precisely) and big bodied and had 2" of fat on his rump.



In 2020 I went back for a full week with a buddy. He was a first timer so really any buck would do, and I was after something bigger than the 2018 buck. We did pretty well! Although my buck wasn't bigger (143" ish), he paid the price for missing a point on his right side, but he was old and wide. Nic's was 150" ish.





In 2021 we went back with another buddy. I guess you'll have to take my word that I'd have passed any 140" to 150" deer, but we didn't see any. Deer numbers were way down. Barely saw spikes and small 3 points. I suspect some heavy harvest rates coupled with a sickness or some sort. I won't return for at least 4 or 5 years.

There absolutely are larger deer in that country. We have seen them on private and I trade messages with folks that see them, kill them on public. My point being that it's not a lack of genetics or habitat that keeps the region from producing larger deer--it's the hunting pressure.

I acknowledge we are not all in it for the same thing. I'm in it for the challenge. I want to best myself each season. It's a way I can objectively see growth in my pursuit. I ate all my tags this year not for a lack of effort, but I did choose to pass some animals. Some smaller bucks would have got it in my home state but the good Lord decided they needed another year. I put meat in the freezer rifle shooting WT does and other ways.

I believe there is a dangerous condition when the idea of scarcity takes hold. You remember the COVID toilet paper fiasco? People buying toilet paper they don't need just because they thought they couldn't later? Dangerous when that gets into hunting.

 

[peterk123]

I've seen a similar rant that you are referring to on hunttalk.com. I hunt in south central montana. The amount of mule deer here is staggering. Granted, I see mostly does, but I expect that. I saw one ag field that had to have had over 500 deer, maybe more. I talked with one rancher and they told me that they have to lease additional grazing land for their cows because of the ongoing muley problem. There was not one day that I was out where I had no sightings. I know zip about what it takes to have a healthy population. I can tell you though these things are more common than squirrels.

Maybe there is another reason we are not getting big bucks. Environment could be changing, food sources may not be as good, or heck.... maybe too many does are knocking things out of whack.

Same thing happened with fish. All species were much bigger when I was a kid. A 5 pound largemouth was no big deal. Today it's bragging rights. I still like to fish. Heck, I even enjoy fishing for.... wait for it..... whitefish!

Personally, I think the number of does are out of whack. At least out my way. Issue doe permits and restrict bucks. I don't need an antler on my wall. I'm out for the experience, the food and hopefully doing my part to help manage the health of the herd.

I know alot of guys think the biologists are idiots or succumb to political pressure. I see it on the forums. But I suspect they know a lot more about this than most hunters. They care about their work and make the best recommendations they can based on the info they have to work with. All these super hardcore hunters must be ten miles in hiking uphill both directions in ten feet of snow. You know, the places I'm too scared to go because most places I go the hunters make it about an eighth of mile in.

As for your buck. That is a beauty. I shot a similar one this year. My first deer with a rifle. The last 20 years was always with a bow. This particular deer was very special to me. And that is all that matters. Oh, and it tasted good too!

 

[svivian]

Theres alot more to this topic than size as well. For example a prime unit I loved to hunt during archery season had nice 4x4 mule deer that averaged 170-180" and you could get a 200" with some effort and time. Over the last decade the 4x4's slowly got killed off while the 3x3 were ignored. Now the 3x3 genetic is terribly strong and you can hardly find a nice 4x4 framed buck.

On top of that the size has dwindled greatly. I used to have trail cam pics of atleast 20 bucks over 185" in one general area. This last season I didn't have a single buck break 165".... I also ended up eating my tag due to the small size.

I don't have an answer in regard to the size but certainly genetics play a factor. Same reason why Utah offers special tags in the Henrys to get rid of the odd mule deer genetics they have been dealing with as well.

 

[Bubblehide]

The really big bucks and bulls have already spread their genes. But of course many want big bucks and bulls to hunt.

 

[EdP]

If it was really an issue WRT herd preservation, there would be a point restriction in place. Shoot what you want. My feeling is that even if there was a point restriction in place, your buck would likely have been legal.

There is a reason the "someone" is in a time out. I have no idea who it is but I'd bet his time out was not because he is a super nice person that everyone loves. Don't let him get to you.

Older bucks are much more likely to have CWD. I wonder if keeping the average buck age down is, or maybe should be, a mitigation strategy.

 

[Legend]

"What IS an acceptable buck to keep the herd healthy?”

Specific to your question antler size does not contribute to herd health. A male is a male in the realm of herd health management(mic drop end of discussion).

The underlying rub that us eastern Montana’s have is change. There was a time where NR pressure was more distrubuted across the State. Now it feels ( I have no data) like NR hit eastern MT hard because it is easy for DIY. This is an issue with State regulations and not the hunters.

 

[Dos Perros]

From what I can gather, this is 2017 to 2021 data available on GoHunt, the areas publicized by folks like Randy Newberg and Steven Rinella, the hunters surveyed has remained constant, but the harvest has decreased 25%. Based on reports from 2022 I would guess the downward trend has continued.

Absolutely this is in FWP's area of responsibility.

 

[Deucebump]

Great replies guys. I would also be for some sort of point restriction. I am from PA and we have had “4 points to 1 side” restrictions for probably 15-20yrs now, and I will say without a doubt, it has raised the overall age class of deer here.

EdP, dont worry, said guy in time out didnt get to me, it takes alot. But I did defend my choice which ultimately led to the off course discussion on the other thread, which is how we ended up here. Lol!

 

[Nick992]

I wouldn't call that a dink, nor a problem. I'm no wildlife biologist, but cervid numbers are mostly based on doe numbers and quality of habitat. The males make their rounds. I understand the better buck next year mentality on private land, but it's too much to ask for on public. That mentality would have to come from the state in the form of rules or fewer tags.

 

[venado mula]

Hello all,

I'm new to this site and I am a retired Wildlife Technician/CWD Technician. I worked for two different state's wildlife agencies. Age, Nutrition, Genetics. The first two are what grow big mule deer. Another function of age/nutrition is buck to doe ratios. Lower buck/doe ratios equate to smaller antler size deer where as higher buck/doe ratios equate to larger antlered deer. Age is by far the most important as mule deer take 6-8 years to mature. Nutrition (limestone/phosphorus) grow big deer so, the previously mentioned play more into the size of a bucks antlers than genetics. MT is an opportunity state and they mange for that not quality of antlered deer, except for a few LE districts. The biologists manage for opportunity and our state's natural resources provide that opportunity. The gentlemen that took the deer in the photo should be very proud of his take.

Thanks for letting me share.

 

[robby denning]

The fact that: >...None of the bucks were yearlings, and all were laughed at (by somebody now in time out) and were told we were part of the problem of low deer numbers for shooting “young dinks”<

offender is in time out tells you how we feel.

Shoot what you like within the law. If everyone was a big buck hunter, there would be even less big bucks.

If you wanna pass, you might find bigger, but no judgement if you don't want to.

If people want more trophy management, that starts at the lobbying level, not attacking hunters on a forum.

 

[Dos Perros]

Hi @ciervo macho récord_227 , question for you.

Absent regulation changes (FWP does nothing), how do you see the hunter participation and harvest numbers going forward?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Social media, predators, and subpar management is what I would consider "the problem".

 

[CRJR45]

I'm not an expert and I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn in years , but I would have taken all the bucks you've posted pictures of , just saying .