When is a buck acceptable to shoot to preserve the deer herd? Should everybody be a trophy hunter? (Montana Rut thread carryover)

[sndmn11]

The problem in MT is we are seeing too few deer in a lot of places, at least a whole lot fewer deer than in previous years. We don't need to kill MD does.

Then I suppose step one would be having less deer tags in general.

 

[j_volt]

Adding my 5.5 year old (tooth verified) Montana dink to the pile that was part of the previous thread.

Just remember, shoot what makes you happy. Virtue signaling (whether about pronouns or passing 3.5 year bucks or eating tag soup) is a waste of time. The future of Montana’s deer herd is in the hands of FWP. I have written in and will again, but frankly, don’t see much changing due to the economic impact based on my last 3 years with a tag in eastern Montana (2020, 2021, 2022). Cheers.

 

[RS3579]

It’s your tag that you purchased. Use it as it fits your needs. Yearling to trophy. All successful hunts are a trophy to me. Good luck in the future on your successful journey.

 

[Customweld]

Contrary to what a lot of folks think, a small percentage of bucks grow into or even past 180 class . Two particular units in Idaho, both with outstanding habitat, fail to produce many large framed bucks. Both of these units have been controlled for 30 plus years. By the thought of letting them age to grow, you would think there was a booner hiding behind every tree and that simply is not the case. A unit south of there has been controlled for under 20 years. It historically produced big bucks, even when it was an otc hunt. Now that it’s controlled, it’s producing some true trophy class bucks year after year.
Just like the majority of humans don’t grow to Shaq size, not every buck is going grow into a 200 class buck.

 

[bsnedeker]

For mulies I personally won't shoot anything less than four points and I'll never shoot another doe. I've passed on a bunch of 2 and 3 point mulies, but I've shot plenty of whitetail dinks and will continue to do so.

FWP should put a point restriction on bucks and stop selling b tags in Central and Eastern Montana from what I've seen on public land.

Until FWP does that, shoot what you want, but I will say I think it's kind of silly celebrating when you shoot a muley with less than 4 points.... it's literally one of the easiest things in the world.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Deucebump]

No??? Im shooting….

 

[Erict]

As I stated in the other thread, if it's legal and makes you happy, shoot away. I'm fine eating MT "tag soup" because our NY season is so long it's a sure thing to score some meat.

Part of the problem is that, unlike most eastern states, MT FWP is funded 71% by license sales and another 24% by federal sources directly related to fish and wildlife. Hard to manage for quality when the bills get paid with quantity. Reducing seasons or licenses requires price increases. Reducing anything gets the outfitters, MOGA and other related businesses upset. Statewide antler restrictions would be a hard sell to the majority of hunters (NY has been trying to get hunters to drink the "antler restriction" and "lead free ammo" kook-aid for years with limited success). No easy answers, but I think it is up to FWP to make some serious proposals. (Mandatory harvest reporting seems like a no-brainer first step).

 

[hobbes]

If everyone would use the fwp app instead of paper tags, it's all reported.

 

[KurtR]

I’m at the point where I’m not shooting a deer unless it’s bigger than the two I have on the wall one whitetail and one muley. I haven’t shot a deer for the last 3 years. My kid and wife gets to shoot what ever makes them happy except mule deer does they have a pass. Generally we try to not shoot young muley bucks as we have plenty of whitetail to choose from. South Dakota suffers from the same problems as Montana. Long season rifle hunt during the rut and winter and disease been putting the hurt on deer.

 

[Rich M]

Robby wouldnt shoot this buck (160) but i happily did. Will hunt muleys no more - all done. Wanted this exact buck for about 45 years, finally could go on the hunt and what a great opportunity it was. My only muley. DIY.

Imo, If traveling like me, you did not make the trip for a little buck, so why shoot one? Especially if you’re planning on going back?

NR tags could have point and/or spread restrictions on them. There would be more and better bucks if they did.

Likewise,a 3-yr cooling off period could be fair for NR. You shoot a buck, you have to wait 3 yrs before going again. This would also temper what folks shoot and allow for more and better bucks. Might help w the overall demand, point creep, whatever.

If you are truly proud of the buck and happy with it, good for you!

Got nothing against little bucks. Just folks who shoot them over and over again while complaining that there are no bigger bucks.

 

[RedSnow]

Unless you are not going to shoot an animal it doesn't bother the herd what buck you shoot. Unless we start talking about killing does. Shooting the little ones just leaves the bruisers for the trophy hunters. It's a bit hard keeping up with the Jones on a site like Rokslide filled with legit killers.

On a tangent I think the issue of mismanagement of the herds combined with added predators is taking its toll and people in many areas are seeing far less game. It's causing us to go at each other more than in the past when it was completely normal not to even look at the rack and feed our families.

 

[littlerhorner]

Just to play devil's advocate. All of these deer on this thread were likely passed on at one point or another if not several times over. Meaning at some point someone likely let those deer walk and we all have ended up with better deer because of it. I agree that FWP needs to make chages, but being ok with passing on deer or eating your tag is not necessarily virtue signaling.

 

[Hippie Steve]

The problem in MT is we are seeing too few deer in a lot of places, at least a whole lot fewer deer than in previous years. We don't need to kill MD does. However, we got here due to more factors than just doe tags. There has to be some small bucks survive to eventually become big bucks. However, I agree, folks should shoot what makes them happy and is legal. Besides a few districts, I'm not for pure trophy management unless it's private land.

Hey hobbes, this is understood and many of these areas have been impacted by increasing elk numbers, especially the alpine zones for food competition. Many micro factors effect mule deer ,some manageable, some not. In my opinion, management is an ongoing process of many factors and right now we have an advantage through public input to not decrease opportunity but shift some things around to maximize the resources and opportunity currently.

 

[BadEarth]

Social media and a change in how people hunt (they go hand in hand). You know the advice guys always gave out to those looking to shoot a public land muley. “Get off the road and you’ll lose 90% of the guys and find plenty of deer”. Now everyone gets off the road. Everyone has mapping on their phone, e-scouts, has quality boots and pack, clothing, long range rifle, quality optics. And is willing to go in far. I don’t blame anyone because I’m that guy too! But 10 years ago I had an old aluminum pack frame, Rockies boots, a 3-9 Tasco on my 7mm and no rangefinder. It’s a different world out there now and more and more mature bucks are getting shot, with guys going farther and farther each year to find mature animals. I think the average age class is dropping each year, which is why people struggle to find those bigger deer. I had spots 5 years ago that you had to hoof to get in to and I never saw a soul. The last few years I see trucks there frequently throughout the season.

I think that’s something that the state fails to take into account is hunters becoming more efficient. No different than archery only units. Bows are faster, guys are shooting farther, etc. if that’s changing, management plans should change.

 

[hobbes]

Hey hobbes, this is understood and many of these areas have been impacted by increasing elk numbers, especially the alpine zones for food competition. Many micro factors effect mule deer ,some manageable, some not. In my opinion, management is an ongoing process of many factors and right now we have an advantage through public input to not decrease opportunity but shift some things around to maximize the resources and opportunity currently.

I really can't speak to the whole state. I hunt elk in a relatively small area in parts of R2 and R3 and don't see a lot of deer but it's been that way my entire time here, since 2011, and I've not ran across more than a few bucks that were respectable bucks.

For the most part I hunt deer in Eastern MT and have seen a substantial drop in herd size in the last three years and a drop in bucks, especially decent 4 points that could turn into big bucks. I hunt a relatively small area, considering the size of MT, for deer also.

I hunt turkeys in nearly every corner of the state, running out more fuel and time than I should. I also spent the first 8 years doing a significant amount of traveling across the state for work and not just on the interstate or primary highways. Like most guys, I keep my eyes open for deer, elk, pheasants, you name it. Besides private land pivots or in town, I don't see as many mule deer as it seems like I did 10 years ago.

In addition to what appears to be lower deer numbers, I have seen a significant increase in NR hunters in the areas that I hunt for both deer and elk. If we aren't giving out more licenses then folks are relocating due to not finding deer wherever they were hunting or maybe it's just a cycle. I'll likely relocate some next season.

Whatever the case may be, I think some changes are in order. I think the open country stands to improve the most from limiting the rut hunt some.

Anyone that really digs in and tries to work out the specifics can see how it becomes a convoluted mess.

I think for the most part, residents don't want to lose their opportunity. They won't complain about a reduction in nonresident licenses. Unfortunately, this all requires legislation, this session is already underway, and the legislators seem more concerned with outfitters and revenue. I don't want to eliminate NRs but I think we could survive with a few less NR dollars. Any loss of opportunity has to start with the NR in my opinion.

With all that said, I'm still planning to enjoy hunting MT if nothing changes. I don't plan to lose any sleep either way.

 

[DeadLastJask]

Im starting this thread to continue the conversation from the “Montana Rut” thread that got way off topic. If you wanna catch up feel free to go read that first. (Ill try to keep this relatively short)

This conversation (debate) came after several members (myself included) posted pics of Muley bucks they harvested this past season, from easten MT. None of the bucks were yearlings, and all were laughed at (by somebody now in time out) and were told we were part of the problem of low deer numbers for shooting “young dinks”. Feel free to agree or disagree if mine is a “young dink” as I will post the pic again. For myself, I am not a true trophy hunter, but I do try to shoot a respectable representaion of what I am hunting, where I am hunting. To be honest, is anybody going to public land in Eastern MT to be a “trophy hunter”? I have never shot a forky or yearling buck in any western state in my life. And I usually hunt 2-3 western states a year for big game. No, I dont “need the meat”. I love to hunt, and I love to shoot things. Thats being brutally honest. I play by the rules of the state, and legally harvest what I think is “acceptable”.

And this isnt really about MT, as I hear this from residents of every western state complianing about NR killing all of the little bucks and destroying the herd. So my question is, “What IS an acceptable buck to keep the herd healthy?” Is it now expected that all hunters become trophy hunters to please those that are? Is it wrong to want to hunt for the pleasure of hunting and filling a tag with what makes you happy? Why blame the hunters playing by the rules set the states wildlife management plan? Lets hear it!

This is the smallest buck I have ever killed in MT, and the “young dink” I was called out for being “part of the problem”.

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I say shoot whatever makes you happy. I’ve spent sometime in Montana and it’s an awesome place to live and hunt. I’m currently back living in Southern Nevada. And I can tell you having to go back to a draw system for any tag can be frustrating at times. But I do see the need for it in terms of quality. On the other hand being guaranteed a Buck tag that’s good for most of the state and all the seasons (archery, muzzleloader, and rifle including the rut) is awesome. And add a Bull Tag on top of that. It doesn’t get much better. Montana residents have it made. In Nevada, if I draw a bull tag I have to wait 5(or is it 7?) years before I can even apply again. And that’s as a resident. I'm still able to draw a deer tag every year for the most part, but even thats getting rough. All the units i can hunt yearly are 8-10 hours from where I live.
This is just my two cents, but I feel like Montana could stand to limit the Deer Rut hunt a little bit and it would be a fairly easy way to improve the quality of bucks available on a yearly basis without taking away residents opportunity to hunt every year. Rut hunts are awesome, but we all know that's the one time a year that big bucks slip up and get killed.

 

[hobbes]

I should probably add that I was not for reducing season for residents in any way not too many years ago. I've changed my mind since then, not necessarily because I want more big bucks, but because I think our MD need a less pressure especially in the rut.

 

[SwiftShot]

The herd takes care of itself as long as there is a decent buck doe ratio. If there is a good ratio the poor sub par bucks dont get to breed.

 

[seww]

This doesn't make sense to me. Passing on the big older bucks just means you could be shooting a smaller buck with big antler genes. At least when you shoot the bigger older animals you might be increasing fertility in the herd overall.

Sure, but you don't know what bull/buck has the good genes unless they are big and have large antlers. There's a reason they grow big. If we were able to determine age before the shot, then yeah it'd make sense to shoot the oldest animal, but at least I cannot determine age.

 

[Dos Perros]

Hey Dos Perros, in my opinion minus any regulation changes/clean ups, I see hunter participation increasing but, weather dependent, our deer populations are at objective or slightly higher in some districts from some of the reports. FWP doesn't gather hunter survey post hunt information on the level that they should be but there is talk of that changing to help aid opportunities.

Every time I've had a tag in Montana, 5 times now I think, I get a call from a nice old lady. She asks me if I hunted, how many days, which units, did I harvest, and was it a 6pt bull or 4pt buck. That seems pretty detailed to me.