What’s your balance between cardio and heavy weights?

[CB2900]

Mobility!

Personal experience, not a trainer . . .

Years ago at 45 I got in what felt like the best shape of my life, training for a pack-in archery hunt. Cardio (running and carrying a 50 lb pack walking) and lifting. But I neglected the most important - mobility. Neither cardio or lifting prepared me enough for climbing/high stepping over deadfall, slipping down ravines, sidehilling, climbing up and down rock faces, hopping streams, and slipping on to my butt while keeping my bow unharmed. The second morning (first overnight) I hurt so bad in my core, hips, upper thighs I just wanted to quit! I almost let everybody else go on and was going to stay in and recover. I was the slowest of the four all trip.

The problem is that longer cardio like running and cycling just doesn't involve enough movement. My heart and lungs were in tremendous shape, but my core and hips were weak.

Lesson learned - the next season prep I did less cardio/lifting and way more mobility, balance, and core. Swing kicks, turkish getups, bench vaults, rope climbing, one leg deadlifts, skaters, lunges and side lunges, box jumps, etc. plus a short but good stretching routine that I did in camp as well. Second morning of that hunt on the same route as the prior year, my feet ached but nothing else did. I was up and at 'em before light, and often in front. Even with less cardio prep my heart and lungs were just as capable to get me up a mountain because my body was easier to mobilize. Makes sense, huh?

I hope you are lifting properly by including lots of stretching and mobility. Those walking lunges are great, do more of that stuff and do them sideways and over benches and stuff. You'll be 45 before you know it, then you'll be . . . 46.

I hadn’t thought of that.

 

[CB2900]

This is a really good thread and I'm surprised to see Starting Strength mentioned here. I work out in Rips gym and Nick (the guy who wrote the above article) actually helped program my workouts while getting ready for elk and sheep hunts over the last couple years. My workouts were basically lift hard (squat, dead lift, bench and press) and a couple months before the hunt beat yourself up on the prowler a couple times a week.

Btw I'm 46 5'10 220lbs and had been doing crossfit for a few years before starting to workout at Rips gym. My squats went up from 225 for 5x5 to 365 for 5x5, bench from 190 5x5 to 290 5x5. I was a bit worried about not doing crossfit type workouts prior to my hunts but I actually felt well prepared while on my hunts.

I lift 2-3x per week, I don't really care about being as strong as absolutely possible because for me, I think cardio is more important, strength is important too but I dont care if I squat 315 vs 300lbs, I dont see how that would help me more than having good cardio.

Yesterday, my squats were 300lbs, Deadlifts 405 and OHP was 145, IMO thats ok for me, I'm mostly focused on cardio stuff right now but I'm trying to keep a base level of strength. No, I;m not as strong as when I was power lifting but I don't care.

Those are very close to my numbers.


That’s really cool.



My one rep max would probably be 415-425 deadlift squat about 350-375 and press about 150-160. I honestly haven’t pushed myself in a couple months so that a guess but I feel pretty confident in them.

Sounds like I have an at least acceptable level of strength so I need to focus are cardio and mobility.

I never struggled at all (by comparison to others) with rucking in the army. However we ran a lot then and I didn’t lift much then.

 

[P Carter]

Seems relevant to the topic:

https://soundcloud.com/huntbackcountry%2F211-clear-advice-on-training-and-why-it-may-not-be-needed

For what it's worth -- likely not much -- the discussions of endurance in this podcast seems to me to be consistent with what I've read in the context of running. Endurance-building runs (runs at below-anaerobic effort) build aerobic capacity through adaptations that result in the use of fat for fuel, such as increasing mitochondrial density, and also increase capillary density. (Note that the "fat as fuel" concept appears to be commonly taken as a weigh-loss concept, which it's not; it's a fueling system concept related to endurance activities, not weight loss.) The rough 80/20 rule between aerobic/anaerobic and avoiding the "gray zone" of in-between efforts is consistent as well. The running stuff I've read emphasizes the importance of mixing endurance-building runs with aerobic work to increase speed and endurance, as well as including strength training. Always interesting to see how different disciplines interact.

 

[*zap*]

So much depends on your personal starting point, age also plays a factor along with injuries and deficiencies. Strength training is important, especially as you age and rucking in rough country requires a good aerobic capacity and muscular endurance.

I recently have researched the L1-4 based programs utilizing your AeT and AnT #'s correctly and will have a good heart monitor by end of the week and a book on training that way fairly soon. Looking back I was probably doing my rucking at too high of a heart rate and doing too much HIIT swimming (too much grey area that wear you down and does not produce). So, reprogramming now.....it really is a fascinating subject with good success behind it.

 

[mtwarden]

more food for thought

https://www.uphillathlete.com/training-for-mountaineering/

 

[Poser]

more food for thought

https://www.uphillathlete.com/training-for-mountaineering/

That’s a good read. I read his former partner and predecessor’s book, Extreme Alpinism, back in the late 90s. I think it’s definitely a deep dive for something as physically unskilled as hunting. Ski mountaineering and alpine climbing require infinity more sport specific skill development, but you could make the case for sheep or goat hunting having more in common with these sports vs. hiking.

They emphasize strength training and the fact that it’s contextualized as a general adaption and therefore will not look like climbing a mountain. They also discuss your pack training not exceeding 20% of your bodweight, which is commonly discussed on Rokslide. Their reasoning is more for the fact that it trains a different energy pathway than injury concern, though, hunting can inherently be heavier than these sports. At the same time, proper strength training should prepare one for these heavy loads so long as you have done sufficient conditions carrying a pack of some amount of weight. They mention 4 weeks for pack training. I have found 3 weeks to be sufficient, so that seems to be in line.

I’m not sure about anerobic threshold training as it relates hunting, but, at the same time, I come off Mtn bike season into hunting season, so my AT is probably at its peak, so I can’t argue against it and you could make the case that sheep hunters put in these massive effort climbs where speed is a considerable factor similar to SkiMo, but, you look at these SkiNo races and they are doing 7,500 feet of climbing in a single race. That would be at the absolute extreme end of hunting. If nothing else, it’s a good reference point, but probably overthinking elk hunting where most people are fine strength training year around, doing some rucking before the season and maybe pushing the prowler around or rowing for some anaerobic training.

I wouldn’t disagree with their assessment of how strong is too strong. They mention that there’s no need to exceed 2x Bodyweight Backsquat for these sports. I’m not sure if they mean 1 rep max (there’s no good reason to do 1 rep maxes outside of a powerlifting meet) or for work sets. I can see that as being reasonable, though. If you are doing lots of other training, living an active lifestyle outside of the gym and taking big trips annually, you are likely self limited to that number anyway due to impeded progress. Again, the inherit heaviness of hunting and the fact that you aren’t racing a clock or sunlight vs. a cornice may change those metrics slightly , but it’s largely a moot point as most people just aren’t going to get “too strong” anyway and “I don’t want to get too strong” is more of an excuse for not putting in the work than it is a real world problem. There are exceptions, but it’s far less of a problem than being too weak.

 

[*zap*]

From the article, what it actually says about pack training.

We recommend a minimum of four weeks of training, or 16 aerobic workouts in a 4 week period as a minimum number of workouts to complete before adding weight. After that weight should be added gradually. Start light, 10% of body weight adds a lot of pounding to a pair of knees over half-dozen miles of hiking. Then add the weight gradually.

The chart then shows up to week 10 with pack weight @ 15% bodyweight. I would imagine it goes for a longer period of time @ 20%.

Also covered:
Keep in mind that the long low intensity hikes with 20% of body weight are aerobic base training; they are not meant to have a profound muscular endurance training effect. To get slightly ahead of ourselves, as you advance past 16 weeks/four months of continuous training, the role of these workouts is to maintain the aerobic base while in the Muscular Endurance phase. Once you get that far along into training there will be weeks where the most important workouts are a Musuclar Endurance focused. And on those weeks most climbers will need to carry 50lbs or a weight that will cause local muscular fatigue to be the limiting factor.

 

[*zap*]

What Is Muscular Endurance? Why Is It Important? How Do You Train It?

Why can some alpinists ascend 1,000 meters in an hour with a heavy pack when others struggle with 1,000 feet in an hour? The answer lies in ME training.

www.uphillathlete.com

In their muscular endurance article it says:
The final goal for this sort of training progression should be carrying loads at above the weight you’ll have on the climb.

 

[mtwarden]

I agree it's not a 100% translation to big game hunting, but it's in the ballpark ; hard to pick a "sport" that more closely resembles big game hunting (in the mountains) than mountaineering does

yeah those skimo guys are animals, not doubt- my guess is that if they don't already hunt, the ones that picked it up would transition very nicely

I have had elk hunting days that were in the 5000'-ish gain before, thankfully nothing in the 7500' range

While it could be overkill for most western hunts, there are still some pretty solid training principles that should carry over well

@*zap* pulls out a couple of good nuggets

 

[Poser]

I agree it's not a 100% translation to big game hunting, but it's in the ballpark ; hard to pick a "sport" that more closely resembles big game hunting (in the mountains) than mountaineering does

yeah those skimo guys are animals, not doubt- my guess is that if they don't already hunt, the ones that picked it up would transition very nicely

I have had elk hunting days that were in the 5000'-ish gain before, thankfully nothing in the 7500' range

While it could be overkill for most western hunts, there are still some pretty solid training principles that should carry over well

@*zap* pulls out a couple of good nuggets

I actually hunted with a big time endurance guy back in November. He does mountain races in the summer and SkiMo during the winter. I was a little worried about keeping up with him, but it actually worked out perfectly as we seemed to be pretty equal in terms of putting a pack on and going off piste. Even when we laid into a trail system for a couple of hours, we were pacing exactly the same and it was comfortable for me. That was 3rd season, so I had already hunted and packed an elk out during 2nd season + some scouting before that.

That being said, I went into the backcountry with him on splitboards in January and he kicked my ass. We hit the first bench at 2,000 feet and he probably waited 20 minutes or more on me. I was sweating like a pig. He stayed behind to take a dump and I went ahead thinking we would hit the summit together and he straight up passed me and beat me by 20 minutes easily. He was getting cold waiting on me. All in all, he could have done what took me 2 hours in one hour. Granted, his skinning technique is probably more efficient than mine, he had been training for SkiMo and I had done no Conditioning in 2 months (besides bike commuting) at that point.

BUT, hunting season was fine.

 

[mtwarden]

if you can keep up with a guy like that during hunting season, I'd say your training is pretty spot on!

 

[moscoe]

My current routine:

Heavy weights 2x/week, 5-6 rep range x 4-5 sets per exercise - Monday upper body, Tuesday lower body. Focus on perfect form every rep- straight back, strong core, controlled movement no jerking. Compound barbell/dumbell exercises.
Wed rest.
Thursday INTENSE elliptical for 35 minutes (including 5 minute warmup) heart rate in the 170s & 180s.
Friday rest.
Saturday is either a really long hike (up to 15 miles) or or moderate length hike with a heavy pack.
Sunday rest or moderate/light hike.

 

[OXN939]

Good one. Simple to stick to but not easy. I copied it down.

If this was my routine, two rest days would be stretch/mobility days.

Second Zog's suggestion to hit mobility heavily. Injury prevention is probably at least as big a part of a successful hunt as physical condition, and is very often overlooked.

Also, it's never too early to get on the cardio for a trip like this. Your training "base' takes a long time to build up, which is why most open class endurance athletic events are won by guys in their mid/ late 30s rather than college kids. Physiologically, it takes you body about 14 days to see the results of a cardiovascular workout. 6 months in advance is plenty of time, but I definitely would take advantage of all I have.

 

[P Carter]

My current routine:

Heavy weights 2x/week, 5-6 rep range x 4-5 sets per exercise - Monday upper body, Tuesday lower body. Focus on perfect form every rep- straight back, strong core, controlled movement no jerking. Compound barbell/dumbell exercises.
Wed rest.
Thursday INTENSE elliptical for 35 minutes (including 5 minute warmup) heart rate in the 170s & 180s.
Friday rest.
Saturday is either a really long hike (up to 15 miles) or or moderate length hike with a heavy pack.
Sunday rest or moderate/light hike.

I have to ask, what is the thinking behind this workout. Weights upper body 1x per week, lower body 1x per week. Is that consistent enough to cause any adaptations? What is the 35 minutes, 1x per week, at high heart rate aimed at? Likewise the 1x long hike. Endurance, I presume. Obviously, exercising is better than not, and anything is better than nothing, but I’m curious if this is a structured plan to obtain some goals.

 

[*zap*]

1x a week is pretty normal for a muscle group workout. I do 8 different strength workouts plus cardio/ruck and I am older so it is generally 14 days between those individual strength workouts. I have made decent strength gains across the board with that type of schedule.

 

[moscoe]

I have to ask, what is the thinking behind this workout. Weights upper body 1x per week, lower body 1x per week. Is that consistent enough to cause any adaptations? What is the 35 minutes, 1x per week, at high heart rate aimed at? Likewise the 1x long hike. Endurance, I presume. Obviously, exercising is better than not, and anything is better than nothing, but I’m curious if this is a structured plan to obtain some goals.

It works for me. Feels like a good balance of strength, cardiovascular and endurance.

I'm not trying to be a powerlifter, just want to maintain muscle mass and strength.

The elliptical workout could be replaced by HIIT, but I think it helps me push through when I feel like I want to quit- keep going, push harder- and it seems to give me a good hormone response in addition to being a full body workout.

The long hike or heavy pack hike is the sport-specific training to keep the little things in shape- like my feet, calves, core, stabilizer muscles, etc.

I'm sure a strength and conditioning coach could tell me what I'm doing wrong, or maybe i'd get better results with periodization, but this feels like a good, general purpose, well rounded and sustainable training regimen.

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

Completely guilty of all heavy weights and run like once a week lol

 

[ScoutOut]

I would say you need to evaluate your cardio level first. If you struggle completing a couple miles then you definitely need to bump up your cardio to 3-4x's a week. In addition I would do a lot of single leg work to improve your ability when it comes to climbing steep grades. Use weighted lunges and box steps to help this.
Also, you might consider making your resistance training more cardio intensive. Complex moves (thrusters, cleans and snatches; think Crossfit) with moderate to heavy reps will fit the bill. As previously mentioned also work on your moblity.
Being strong doesn't cut it when you are gassed.

 

[Kilboars]

I'll do 30min cardio first to warm up, then two body parts. Ie: Back & Biceps, Chest & Triceps, Legs & shoulders, finish with abs/core & stretching. Old school simple.

I'll listen to a positive or informative Podcast or book while I workout. Try to workout out Mon-Fri but I always miss a day here and there.

Guy I work with have a deal were we have to pay the other guy $1 on the days you skip. Does help on those mornings my pillow starts sticking to my head.

 

[*zap*]

So, my understanding of one useful aspect of cardio is that if you raise your AeT (aerobic threshold, 80% of your max heart rate) then you can do more lower intensity activity for longer periods of time while using oxygen to burn fat. You raise your AeT by doing frequent longer duration low intensity cardio sessions (60-70% of max heart rate).
It is my understanding that increasing this aerobic capacity also translates to increased anaerobic ability.
Basically no downside, especially if you consider that your main obstacle is just the time that it takes to do these sessions because there is little fatigue or burn out if you go about it with a plan of incremental increase because of the nature of it being low intensity.
I believe that varying these sessions by using different forms of exercise also leads to conditioning different muscle groups. Bike, swim, walk, walk with light weight, walk stairs/steeper grades, etc.….as long as you stay aware of keeping within that heart rate zone you can use multiple options.