What's wrong with more grizzlies in Idaho?

[Wrench]

The griz I faced last year in Idaho stuck around about 2x as long as a black bear....which isn't very long. That was a 350lb (internet 600#) sow.

 

[Wrench]

What is the 'grey ghost'?

The woodland caribou. It's worth the time to read the study if you find it....but I'll summarize.

Woodland caribou only eat lichen and inhabit the salmo and priest lake area. All motorized access was stopped to avoid disturbing the ghosts. The ghosts migrated back to Canada, oddly enough to thrive in the logged areas. Usfw brought in more....and they got eaten.

All of the above hammered winter recreation and did great things to slow logging (in an area famous for massi e burns).

 

[FAAFO]

The woodland caribou. It's worth the time to read the study if you find it....but I'll summarize.

Woodland caribou only eat lichen and inhabit the salmo and priest lake area. All motorized access was stopped to avoid disturbing the ghosts. The ghosts migrated back to Canada, oddly enough to thrive in the logged areas. Usfw brought in more....and they got eaten.

All of the above hammered winter recreation and did great things to slow logging (in an area famous for massi e burns).

Climate change is a bitch. If there was no grizzlies or wolves in ID you still wouldn’t have caribou.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

I’m always curious why the people pushing for grizzly reintroduction don’t want them reintroduced into their neighborhood. Sounds like OP may be from Idaho, do you want them brought to within 5 miles of where you live?

 

[Rotnguns]

I’m always curious why the people pushing for grizzly reintroduction don’t want them reintroduced into their neighborhood. Sounds like OP may be from Idaho, do you want them brought to within 5 miles of where you live?

I'd have no problem with that. We've got plenty of predators even closer. Lions are routinely spotted here on security cams. One even took down a deer near a suburban intersection in Southeast Boise.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Guys that preach conservation of one species but not another? Hypocrites.

Wolves, lions, and grizz are thriving in the GYE. Is that not conservation/preservation enough? Maybe you should ping some ranchers in CO, WY, or MT, about how predators impact their livelihood and how much "assistance" they get for their losses from the government.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

I'd have no problem with that. We've got plenty of predators even closer. Lions are routinely spotted here on security cams. One even took down a deer near a suburban intersection in Southeast Boise.

I’ll give you credit for being consistent, but I’ll disagree on how we view them. I don’t view them the same way as wolves or mountain lions.

 

[FAAFO]

Wolves, lions, and grizz are thriving in the GYE. Is that not conservation/preservation enough? Maybe you should ping some ranchers in CO, WY, or MT, about how predators impact their livelihood and how much "assistance" they get for their losses from the government.

Yes they are thriving in that area, what’s your point?

What ranchers should I ping? How about one of my closest friend Dick Thoman whose family has had the most claims due to grizzly bears and wolves in their grazing allotments? Or should I reach out to another close family the Arambels who have a successful sheep operation in the middle of the predator zone? I have his cell number if you want to talk to him. Or I can make it even easier for you and “ping” my own family about the issue. What do you want me to talk to them about? I’ve seen what grizzly bears and wolves do. But guess what? Grizzly bears and wolves belong on the land, it’s the cost of doing business now. As far as payment I won’t comment on a public forum on that. How much experience do you have with it? Send me a PM and I’ll be more than happy to talk to you about it. I always enjoy talking to someone else about ranching.

 

[Seeknelk]

What's wrong with less grizzlies in Idaho?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Yes they are thriving in that area, what’s your point?

Few, if anybody, on this site will argue that having wolves, grizz, and lions in the GYE is a bad thing. It's a win for conservation that this huge park is able to support thriving populations. However, when they predictably expand beyond the confines of the park, conservation shouldn't stop. Like all other game species, populations should be audited and effective management goals established including hunting seasons. However, this will never happen in our lifetimes on grizz and it's touch and go with wolves every year.

Or should I reach out to another close family the Arambels who have a successful sheep operation in the middle of the predator zone? Grizzly bears and wolves belong on the land, it’s the cost of doing business now. As far as payment I won’t comment on a public forum on that.

You and your rancher friends live in the middle of the predator zone. It really sucks to be them and receive, from what I've generally heard, only a fraction of the amount of money they should receive for losses due to predation. If they're receiving "fair" compensation for their losses, I think we'd all be hearing about it.

You folks may be used to and adjusted business models for this type of loss. However, saying that these predators "belong on the land" everywhere else and going a step further to push this predictable/avoidable predation loss on others for some idealistic BS is selfish at best. Hells bells, in CO ranchers can't even shoot introduced wolves that are harrassing or killing livestock without an investigation and risk of harsh penalties.

I hunted 18 miles back in the Bob in NW MT for 8 days in 2021 from 9/22-9/27. The outfitter has hunted the same area for more than 30 years. There used to be so many elk in the Bob that they were rounded up and used to bolster/re-introduce into other parts of MT with struggling herds. During that hunt, across 8 hunters and 4 guides, we glassed thousands of acres. There was exactly 1 elk seen during that hunt, and I was blessed to have an opportunity to kill it. The re-introduction of wolves (they were already there), increase in grizz numbers, existing lions, and black bears, coupled with overly liberal seasons, have decimated the Bob and surrounding areas. Yes, there are still elk and deer back there, but only a fraction of once were, and predators are a huge part of the problem.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

Southeast Boise.

That explains things.

 

[go_deep]

I think where people have issues with predator reintroduction is simply this. There's an endangered species act, they reintroduce a species with say a 10 year plan to have a stable population and have the protection status lifted. 10 years come and go and maybe 10 or even 20 more and the species gets more protection, we get told they needs more time.
Here's the thing, either the endangered species act works, or out doesn't. Stop protecting them and allow the state to manage them, or it's just a repetitive bait and switch with no intent to unlist them.

People have every right to be upset about it, they're just voicing it in the wrong direction.

 

[Rotnguns]

I think where people have issues with predator reintroduction is simply this. There's an endangered species act, they reintroduce a species with say a 10 year plan to have a stable population and have the protection status lifted. 10 years come and go and maybe 10 or even 20 more and the species gets more protection, we get told they needs more time.
Here's the thing, either the endangered species act works, or out doesn't. Stop protecting them and allow the state to manage them, or it's just a repetitive bait and switch with no intent to unlist them.

People have every right to be upset about it, they're just voicing it in the wrong direction.

Part of the problem, in my view, is that we're being gaslighted by various groups that conduct census counts of grizzlies. Either the grizzlies in Idaho are particularly violent, or there are lots more of them than we've been told. I'd like to see an unbiased comprehensive census taken by Idaho Fish and Game - fund it with a legislative budget line item. It's difficult to make an informed decision if objectively-acquired data are lacking.

 

[mtnbiker208]

Wolves, lions, and grizz are thriving in the GYE. Is that not conservation/preservation enough? Maybe you should ping some ranchers in CO, WY, or MT, about how predators impact their livelihood and how much "assistance" they get for their losses from the government.

I am pro rancher, but that one gets old. The government helps them as much as they help my business. But i don't go crying about my increased overhead. Heck one rancher i am friends with complains the elk are eating all there feed.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Part of the problem, in my view, is that we're being gaslighted by various groups that conduct census counts of grizzlies. Either the grizzlies in Idaho are particularly violent, or there are lots more of them than we've been told. I'd like to see an unbiased comprehensive census taken by Idaho Fish and Game - fund it with a legislative budget line item. It's difficult to make an informed decision if objectively-acquired data are lacking.

Agree 100% on the need for data and that isn’t limited to predators. The wildlife agencies have a hard enough time surveying deer and elk in wilderness areas like the Bob and Frank Church. These are animals that spend quite a bit of time in the open compared to bears. Prioritizing funds for an in-depth census for grizz may be even more challenging and heavily influenced by “estimates”. I understand you gotta start somewhere….

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I am pro rancher, but that one gets old. The government helps them as much as they help my business. But i don't go crying about my increased overhead. Heck one rancher i am friends with complains the elk are eating all there feed.

In the case of wolves in CO, the government agencies introduced a problem where none existed. Then they tied ranchers’ hands with only non-lethal means to control problem wolves with no chance of a hunting season or other reasonable management controls in place. Then they implemented a $15k cap on restitution for predation. With calves going for around $1000, it wouldn’t take long to hit the cap and then what?

Does your rancher friend participate in any management programs for the elk? Does he provide access to kill cows to try and thin them out?

 

[Wrench]

I am pro rancher, but that one gets old. The government helps them as much as they help my business. But i don't go crying about my increased overhead. Heck one rancher i am friends with complains the elk are eating all there feed.

To be fair, elk don't eat couches.

 

[mtnbiker208]

In the case of wolves in CO, the government agencies introduced a problem where none existed. Then they tied ranchers’ hands with only non-lethal means to control problem wolves with no chance of a hunting season or other reasonable management controls in place. Then they implemented a $15k cap on restitution for predation. With calves going for around $1000, it wouldn’t take long to hit the cap and then what?

Does your rancher friend participate in any management programs for the elk? Does he provide access to kill cows to try and thin them out?

They stopped allowing hunters on the ranch after one decided to shoot at turkeys in the corral where steers where.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Yes they are thriving in that area, what’s your point?

What ranchers should I ping? How about one of my closest friend Dick Thoman whose family has had the most claims due to grizzly bears and wolves in their grazing allotments? Or should I reach out to another close family the Arambels who have a successful sheep operation in the middle of the predator zone? I have his cell number if you want to talk to him. Or I can make it even easier for you and “ping” my own family about the issue. What do you want me to talk to them about? I’ve seen what grizzly bears and wolves do. But guess what? Grizzly bears and wolves belong on the land, it’s the cost of doing business now. As far as payment I won’t comment on a public forum on that. How much experience do you have with it? Send me a PM and I’ll be more than happy to talk to you about it. I always enjoy talking to someone else about ranching.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending...outhwestern-idaho/63TJJQK4SVEBBEJPHI7SLMUDYQ/

How was this story received locally? I’m legitimately curious as your close to area ranchers.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

They stopped allowing hunters on the ranch after one decided to shoot at turkeys in the corral where steers where.

That’s really unfortunate, but it seems they threw the baby out with the bath water. A lot of people would pay a reasonable trespass fee to help eliminate cows (elk).

I meant to add that back in the 80s my late father used to antelope hunt a sprawling ranch in E Central WY. Every time they left the ranch house, the rancher reminded them that he had 15 turkeys on the place and there better be 15 when they left. Your story reminded me of Dad.