What does it take to kill a grizzly?

[yeti12]

Once again, animals that have been easily killed with sharp sticks also somehow require the largest caliber guns around to kill.

 

[walk2112]

While the true practicing indigenous people are not against killing bears they have a special ritual when they do kill one. They will not kill a fish eating bear but instead a fall berry fed bear….

Could be two separate thoughts smashed together here that I’m misinterpreting what you mean, but I’m 99.9% sure the reason they don’t kill a fish eating bear, but will kill a fall berry fed bear, is not a spiritual one.
(One tastes like shit, the other is pretty tasty)

Either way, devils aadvocate here, Alaska bears must be weaker than guided Yukon bears. Many big bears get taken each year by 223, 243, 22-250 or similar all over rural Alaska.

 

[MtnW]

ELPOLLO,
I still believe if you are a biologist you are not a big game biologist but a avian biologist.BIG difference.
No one in their right mind needs to be a trained, book smart ballistics expert to know the .308/7MM/300/375 Mag’s killing ability compared to a .223. I can not believe you can not understand that many of the families in ,WY,MT,ID that I mentioned that have/had big game biologists, game managers,wardens in their families, that these families had four or six family members. They all hunted their entire lives,part of the culture in being raised in these states. Many of these families were involved in hunting and killing 400-500 big game animals in their life times, plus hunting with friends The family members who are/were wardens, biologists, game managers acquired tremendous amounts of real in the field ,real world ballistics experience, not through as you want to point out our classroom “COURSE WORK”. These wardens, etc. who you and formidilosus , dismiss and minimize their experience levels and state they have no ballistics experience or knowledge is just false. They know more than you course work boys in regards to killing big game animals ever will. Same for many of the master guides we have had the pleasure to hunt with. These guides, outfitters owners , wardens, biologists, game managers, have not only hunted and killed grizzlies on their own hunts, numerous numbers of kills with their clients, but also a large number of nuisance grizzlies around their hunting camps,lodges,homes, state game units, ranches and livestock. To call thIs group of professionals, inexperienced is simply another incorrect fallacy.Your calling these groups of outdoor professionals inexperienced is just ignorant.I am not the one who is working for a hUnting forum giving out advice to new hunters about using a .223 to hunt grizzly/brown bears. I am just a hunting forum member with some grizzly killing/hunting experiences calling out your B.S.. It doesn’t matter if I have killed 3 grizzly bears or 30. It’s not really any of your personal business on how many kills I personally have made or how many moose , elk, or Mtn sheep I have killed. It’s other hunters with similar experience levels along with the many hunters/outdoor professionals on here and other hunting forums that are saying shooting grizzly/brown bears with a .223 is just flat out unethical, unsafe/dangerous, and unsportsmanlike .

 

[gbflyer]

Well that certainly took the predictable turn.

 

[NateTP38]

What is your experience level to be such a expert? How many grizzly, brown bears , mountain sheep, moose, elk , caribou, Cape buffalo, leopards have you killed, hunting on your own or with a guide?

I don’t give advice on topics I have no experience on, and I am annoyed by others who attempt to.

It doesn’t matter if I have killed 3 grizzly bears or 30. It’s not really any of your personal business on how many kills I personally have made or how many moose , elk, or Mtn sheep I have killed.

.223 derangement syndrome is real.

 

[walk2112]

Well the thread’s intent was to discuss what it takes to kill a grizzly, but I think we’re also witnessing what it takes to kill a thread!

 

[yeti12]

ELPOLLO,
I still believe if you are a biologist you are not a big game biologist but a avian biologist.BIG difference.
No one in their right mind needs to be a trained, book smart ballistics expert to know the .308/7MM/300/375 Mag’s killing ability compared to a .223. I can not believe you can not understand that many of the families in ,WY,MT,ID that I mentioned that have/had big game biologists, game managers,wardens in their families, that these families had four or six family members. They all hunted their entire lives,part of the culture in being raised in these states. Many of these families were involved in hunting and killing 400-500 big game animals in their life times, plus hunting with friends The family members who are/were wardens, biologists, game managers acquired tremendous amounts of real in the field ,real world ballistics experience, not through as you want to point out our classroom “COURSE WORK”. These wardens, etc. who you and formidilosus , dismiss and minimize their experience levels and state they have no ballistics experience or knowledge is just false. They know more than you course work boys in regards to killing big game animals ever will. Same for many of the master guides we have had the pleasure to hunt with. These guides, outfitters owners , wardens, biologists, game managers, have not only hunted and killed grizzlies on their own hunts, numerous numbers of kills with their clients, but also a large number of nuisance grizzlies around their hunting camps,lodges,homes, state game units, ranches and livestock. To call thIs group of professionals, inexperienced is simply another incorrect fallacy.Your calling these groups of outdoor professionals inexperienced is just ignorant.I am not the one who is working for a hUnting forum giving out advice to new hunters about using a .223 to hunt grizzly/brown bears. I am just a hunting forum member with some grizzly killing/hunting experiences calling out your B.S.. It doesn’t matter if I have killed 3 grizzly bears or 30. It’s not really any of your personal business on how many kills I personally have made or how many moose , elk, or Mtn sheep I have killed. It’s other hunters with similar experience levels along with the many hunters/outdoor professionals on here and other hunting forums that are saying shooting grizzly/brown bears with a .223 is just flat out unethical, unsafe/dangerous, and unsportsmanlike .

These people you speak of are likely the same ones that have been saying for decades you can't shoot over 200 or 300 yards.

They live in their Fudd bubble.

 

[yeti12]

.223 derangement syndrome is real.

Thank you for that post. It's gold.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

@MtnW you’re making several strong claims and calling folks out by name with a clear lack of reading comprehension and intelligence on several different subject matters. I’d suggest trying to do better and have another one of your “spiritual feelings” and do some research here.

 

[Thegman]

I don’t give advice on topics I have no experience on, and I am annoyed by others who attempt to.
Especially on hunting animals that can kill you.
Good luck if you ever get a chance to actually be in mtn grizzly or coastal brown bear country and run into the wrong sow grizzly in a bad mood with a pair of 75 lb cubs , or stumble upon a big 600 lb boar sleeping on his kill at 10-15 yards with your little .223 and your fixed 10X scope. You know it all, preach to your uniformed followers.Or you take a shot and wound a grizzly with your inadequate/marginal cartridge, for someone else to deal with . Wih your lack of knowledge and inexperience I am sure you have never even thought of that. Maybe your little .224 80 grain bullet, 800 yard ballistics expertise , and your course work will save your ass . Good luck with that.

Well, actually, you kind of do give on advice on topics in which you have no experience. You're doing it this entire post actually:

You have no experience using the very bullets you're implying won't work in the scenarios you're presenting. You may have no experience in part because you've convinced yourself it wouldn't work, without having any experience with it.

 

[Billogna]

ELPOLLO,
I still believe if you are a biologist you are not a big game biologist but a avian biologist.BIG difference.
No one in their right mind needs to be a trained, book smart ballistics expert to know the .308/7MM/300/375 Mag’s killing ability compared to a .223. I can not believe you can not understand that many of the families in ,WY,MT,ID that I mentioned that have/had big game biologists, game managers,wardens in their families, that these families had four or six family members. They all hunted their entire lives,part of the culture in being raised in these states. Many of these families were involved in hunting and killing 400-500 big game animals in their life times, plus hunting with friends The family members who are/were wardens, biologists, game managers acquired tremendous amounts of real in the field ,real world ballistics experience, not through as you want to point out our classroom “COURSE WORK”. These wardens, etc. who you and formidilosus , dismiss and minimize their experience levels and state they have no ballistics experience or knowledge is just false. They know more than you course work boys in regards to killing big game animals ever will. Same for many of the master guides we have had the pleasure to hunt with. These guides, outfitters owners , wardens, biologists, game managers, have not only hunted and killed grizzlies on their own hunts, numerous numbers of kills with their clients, but also a large number of nuisance grizzlies around their hunting camps,lodges,homes, state game units, ranches and livestock. To call thIs group of professionals, inexperienced is simply another incorrect fallacy.Your calling these groups of outdoor professionals inexperienced is just ignorant.I am not the one who is working for a hUnting forum giving out advice to new hunters about using a .223 to hunt grizzly/brown bears. I am just a hunting forum member with some grizzly killing/hunting experiences calling out your B.S.. It doesn’t matter if I have killed 3 grizzly bears or 30. It’s not really any of your personal business on how many kills I personally have made or how many moose , elk, or Mtn sheep I have killed. It’s other hunters with similar experience levels along with the many hunters/outdoor professionals on here and other hunting forums that are saying shooting grizzly/brown bears with a .223 is just flat out unethical, unsafe/dangerous, and unsportsmanlike .

Do yourself a favor and go read these threads IN THEIR ENTIRETY (yes that's over 400 pages of discussion and empirical proof that 223's work fantastically on big game and also WHY - a sort of treatise on terminal ballistics if you will). Then come back and discuss. I will warn you now! Your feelings might get hurt.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

Got to try the 77TMK on moose tonight. Spike bull, but still probably about the size of a typical bull elk (?). Behind the shoulder shot. Hit was a little high but took out lungs and he dropped at the shot (around 70 yards). Muzzle velocity is around 2,730, so probably around 2560ish impact...

rokslide.com

6mm /.243 hunting success on Big Game

It’s because they don’t open up and fragment like the eldm/tmk bullets. The guys chasing the smaller diameter less recoiling rifles in general want to get into the lungs/heart and rapid expand to disrupt the Circulatory & and respiratory system as much as possible so the brain is starved of as...

rokslide.com

*edited for clarification

 

[ElPollo]

ELPOLLO,
I still believe if you are a biologist you are not a big game biologist but a avian biologist.BIG difference.
No one in their right mind needs to be a trained, book smart ballistics expert to know the .308/7MM/300/375 Mag’s killing ability compared to a .223. I can not believe you can not understand that many of the families in ,WY,MT,ID that I mentioned that have/had big game biologists, game managers,wardens in their families, that these families had four or six family members. They all hunted their entire lives,part of the culture in being raised in these states. Many of these families were involved in hunting and killing 400-500 big game animals in their life times, plus hunting with friends The family members who are/were wardens, biologists, game managers acquired tremendous amounts of real in the field ,real world ballistics experience, not through as you want to point out our classroom “COURSE WORK”. These wardens, etc. who you and formidilosus , dismiss and minimize their experience levels and state they have no ballistics experience or knowledge is just false. They know more than you course work boys in regards to killing big game animals ever will. Same for many of the master guides we have had the pleasure to hunt with. These guides, outfitters owners , wardens, biologists, game managers, have not only hunted and killed grizzlies on their own hunts, numerous numbers of kills with their clients, but also a large number of nuisance grizzlies around their hunting camps,lodges,homes, state game units, ranches and livestock. To call thIs group of professionals, inexperienced is simply another incorrect fallacy.Your calling these groups of outdoor professionals inexperienced is just ignorant.I am not the one who is working for a hUnting forum giving out advice to new hunters about using a .223 to hunt grizzly/brown bears. I am just a hunting forum member with some grizzly killing/hunting experiences calling out your B.S.. It doesn’t matter if I have killed 3 grizzly bears or 30. It’s not really any of your personal business on how many kills I personally have made or how many moose , elk, or Mtn sheep I have killed. It’s other hunters with similar experience levels along with the many hunters/outdoor professionals on here and other hunting forums that are saying shooting grizzly/brown bears with a .223 is just flat out unethical, unsafe/dangerous, and unsportsmanlike .

What you believe about either me (of which you have absolutely no knowledge of other than your assumption based on my screen name on a website) or about ballistics has no bearing on anything. Believing something to be objectively correct is an oxymoron. You will keep talking about what you believe, but it doesn’t matter to anyone but you. The unfortunate part of this is that when someone presents you with evidence that is contrary to your belief, you do not know what to do with it.

It reminds me of a story from years ago about a pronghorn translocation. Telemetry data from the site showed that the pronghorn there would not cross fences. When presented with a fence with no exit, they would walk in circles around the fence until an exit was provided to them. When we brought pronghorn in from another area, they would join with existing herds. When that herd came to a fence, the translocated pronghorn would jump the fence and keep on going. The rest of the herd would watch this happen in utter disbelief as if the translocated pronghorn had disappeared through a wormhole and no longer existed in their reality.

I would suggest this is both a story and, in this case, a metaphor. But perhaps I’m using words that are too big.

 

[justin davis]

I saw a video of Tim Wells shooting a grizzly in the forehead with an arrow! He dropped it

 

[Colby]

Not to be captain obvious but there are multiple dead grizzlies in the 223 thread.

 

[RMM]

Not to be captain obvious but there are multiple dead grizzlies in the 223 thread.

How dare you bring facts to this thread.. @MtnW is clearly a great white hunter. He knows more than everyone else on this forum because he's maybe or maybe not killed 3 or 30 grizzlies with his 300 whizbang mega ultra super magnum and that's what all the third-generation families who live in grizzly states use so you should too

 

[pacoalcracker]

Just because you could...don't mean you should. Hunting any dangerous game on purpose with a .223 regardless of type of bullet is well, just reckless. WHY? Why would you? Just so you could brag about it? There is absolutely no logical reason to do so. (exception-perhaps natives don't have any other weapon available)

I'm pretty sure most African countries dictate a caliber minimum for dangerous game to prevent idiots from committing suicide and endangering everyone around them. Been that way for 100+ years and guess what...it has not changed because bullets got tougher or faster.

Seems common sense isn't so common and that's it in a nutshell.

Can't wait for the 22 Hornet crowd to follow this direction. They will say the same thing. Bullet type and placement...lol.

 

[BjornF16]

I’m kind of enjoying your indignant answers here. Where exactly do wildlife biologists, or game managers, wardens, or guides get training on ballistics? Is this OJT? Is there coursework involved? How many animals do you think your average wildlife biologist or guide kills per year. Is the number of animals killed the measure of someone’s ballistic knowledge? Please enlighten us?

I’d like to see the curriculum

 

[RMM]

Just because you could...don't mean you should. Hunting any dangerous game on purpose with a .223 regardless of type of bullet is well, just reckless. WHY? Why would you? Just so you could brag about it? There is absolutely no logical reason to do so. (exception-perhaps natives don't have any other weapon available)

I'm pretty sure most African countries dictate a caliber minimum for dangerous game to prevent idiots from committing suicide and endangering everyone around them. Been that way for 100+ years and guess what...it has not changed because bullets got tougher or faster.

Seems common sense isn't so common and that's it in a nutshell.

Can't wait for the 22 Hornet crowd to follow this direction. They will say the same thing. Bullet type and placement...lol.

So, what is your stance on archery hunting dangerous game?

 

[Billogna]

I'm pretty sure most African countries dictate a caliber minimum for dangerous game to prevent idiots from committing suicide and endangering everyone around them. Been that way for 100+ years and guess what...it has not changed because bullets got tougher or faster.

So....... Who wants to tell him? Should we tell him??

 

[Thegman]

Just because you could...don't mean you should. Hunting any dangerous game on purpose with a .223 regardless of type of bullet is well, just reckless. WHY? Why would you? Just so you could brag about it? There is absolutely no logical reason to do so. (exception-perhaps natives don't have any other weapon available)

I'm pretty sure most African countries dictate a caliber minimum for dangerous game to prevent idiots from committing suicide and endangering everyone around them. Been that way for 100+ years and guess what...it has not changed because bullets got tougher or faster.

Seems common sense isn't so common and that's it in a nutshell.

Can't wait for the 22 Hornet crowd to follow this direction. They will say the same thing. Bullet type and placement...lol.

What personal experiences with the above has led you to your conclusion?

How about dangerous game with a bow and arrow? Same same?