What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[fwafwow]

At least now you know the information is out there

Thanks. But I don’t need persuading on small caliber results - with the right projectile - even if posted by someone “random” on the internet.

 

[RockChukkar]

Thanks. But I don’t need persuading on small caliber results - with the right projectile. Even if posted by someone random on the internet, I appreciate objective data, logic and reason over custom and stuff passed down from elders.

I’m sorry you feel like I’m trying to persuade you. That’s not my intent.

Just pointing out the findings of two of the biggest names in the hunting and shooting world over the last 100years. However you process that is entirely up to you.

 

[RockChukkar]

If anyone is interested in the book, thrift books has a used option for $24. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/handb...37718726/item/#edition=65707798&idiq=57056618

 

[Don Fischer]

Re: gen Z thinking they can

and Im 68. Far from Gen Z. And I hate cell phones and am embarrassed for anyone over 50 who can text with two hands and still love the idea that there’s nothing like too much horsepower. But the 223 w/77TMKs has proven itself a superior killer in mortal hands to the big boomers many times over.

Think I'm in this guys corner for the most part. I believe that the ability to kill depends on a shooter that knows how to place his shot with the bullet he's using. If he does pretty much any bullet will kill well. At the same time I think anything below the 25 caliber is taking it to far and the animal deserves better than that. Same time anything over 30-06 is simply not normally necessary! In between the two are a bunch of cartridges that would work very well in the right hands. One reason I go this way is the older I get the less I like recoil! I do have a 243 but only for varmint and predators. My newest rifle, well old one I had re-barreled, is a 260 Rem. Also have two more 6.5's, a 6.5x55 and a 6.5x06. Absolutely no need for any of them other than I want them and their recoil doesn't bother me. At one time I was a big fan of 7mm's but for no good reason drifted away. I don't understand the need for a 70gr 224 cal bullet when you can get lighter and heavier both in 243 cal. And I don't recommend 243 for big game hunting but know it will work as well as any, if the shooter does his job.

 

[Don Fischer]

Lower recoil but still plenty of killing power is an attractive combination. I think a lot of people (myself included) thought you couldn't get the killing power. But this site has an impossible to ignore body of evidence that killing power is there with the smaller cartridges and correct bullet. Plus if you reload the smaller cartridges save a little power

Let me correct this. "Killing power is there with the smaller cartridge's depending on the skill of the shooter".

 

[Article 4]

I have a ton of various cartridges and rifles from 17s to 223's to 6mm CM all the way up to 338 NM Improved. They all kill, all of them. I tend to match the caliber and bullet to what I am hunting. 6mm for Antelope, Deer, and coyotes etc with Bergers...larger 30's with bonded bullets for instance for larger game with heavier bone structures. Africa, gets larger calibers for sure with bonded or solids.

I agree, if you hit an animal perfectly, most calibers will kill most things. Its when you don't hit them perfectly you might be happy you had a larger bullet.

As far as accuracy, 1/2 MOA is 1/2 MOA. No matter the caliber, no matter the recoil. As long as you can put that first shot where you want it, you are good. I hope no one is having to have a range day hunting, shooting 15 shots at the same animal having to worry about excessive recoil.

There are experts although some of the ones that are looked to here are experts at what they promote, I would not call them experts in the industry. To me, the experts are ballisticians like Jayden Quinlan and Bryan Litz. I believe what they say and prove with data, if you are looking for that, check out what they have to say.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

No matter the caliber, no matter the recoil. As long as you can put that first shot where you want it, you are good.

I don’t know what your experience is but in what I’ve seen, and when actually put to the test in off season training; actually being in the field with real world big game hunting shot scenarios, these two sentences almost never go hand in hand.

We’ve put this to the test with shooters of all ages, sizes, skill, etc. over the last 10 years. You would honestly laugh out loud at the results. The amount of killing hits on targets goes exponentially up, the lower you go in cartridge. From former PRS and VHA long range shooters all the way to my wife’s friends who had never shot a rifle until that day.

I would agree 1,000% with these two sentences if they were true and regularly repeatable.

 

[Don Fischer]

I don’t know what your experience is but in what I’ve seen, and when actually put to the test in off season training; actually being in the field with real world big game hunting shot scenarios, these two sentences almost never go hand in hand.

We’ve put this to the test with shooters of all ages, sizes, skill, etc. over the last 10 years. You would honestly laugh out loud at the results. The amount of killing hits on targets goes exponentially up, the lower you go in cartridge. From former PRS and VHA long range shooters all the way to my wife’s friends who had never shot a rifle until that day.

I would agree 1,000% with these two sentences if they were true and regularly repeatable.

I won't. Thing missing is you have to know where to put that first shot.

 

[Article 4]

I don’t know what your experience is but in what I’ve seen, and when actually put to the test in off season training; actually being in the field with real world big game hunting shot scenarios, these two sentences almost never go hand in hand.

We’ve put this to the test with shooters of all ages, sizes, skill, etc. over the last 10 years. You would honestly laugh out loud at the results. The amount of killing hits on targets goes exponentially up, the lower you go in cartridge. From former PRS and VHA long range shooters all the way to my wife’s friends who had never shot a rifle until that day.

I would agree 1,000% with these two sentences if they were true and regularly repeatable.

I have spent 40+ years in the field. I have spent as many years in off season training including range time, teaching, and taking new and accomplished hunters hunting.

Comp shooters shoot small calibers for many reasons. One of them being due to shooting 200 rounds in a couple days and needing to call f/u shots quickly and manage their bodies and recoil. No way I would wanna shoot a big 30 that many time for sure.

IME. These two always go hand in hand. Well placed first rounds will kill. Every single time. No matter the caliber. Hunters, when taught, practiced, and put into application correctly are successful in this way.

 

[Don Fischer]

I have spent 40+ years in the field. I have spent as many years in off season training including range time, teaching, and taking new and accomplished hunters hunting.

Comp shooters shoot small calibers for many reasons. One of them being due to shooting 200 rounds in a couple days and needing to call f/u shots quickly and manage their bodies and recoil. No way I would wanna shoot a big 30 that many time for sure.

IME. These two always go hand in hand. Well placed first rounds will kill. Every single time. No matter the caliber. Hunters, when taught, practiced, and put into application correctly are successful in this way.

I'd guess there's something to that. I recall when Carmichel fooled with the 260 Rem one of his thought's was to tame recoil on long strings of shots in the target game!

 

[mt terry d]

I shot 7mm wby and 300 win mag for years. Grew up shooting as an early teen a 12 ga double bbl Ithaca at pigeons flying out of the hay now. Shot 12 ga slugs for deer. Recoil doesn’t “bother me”. I shoot the 223 much more accurately and am able to make a first shot hit, spot a shot and correct and stay on an animal much better with the 223. I’m a more efficient and humane killer with the 223. Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m betting those who claim 223 isn’t as effective and efficient at killing elk sized game ( and larger as proven) have zero experience shooting 223 with caliber heavy bullets at elk sized game. As I said, correct me if I’m mistaken.

 

[Don Fischer]

I shot 7mm wby and 300 win mag for years. Grew up shooting as an early teen a 12 ga double bbl Ithaca at pigeons flying out of the hay now. Shot 12 ga slugs for deer. Recoil doesn’t “bother me”. I shoot the 223 much more accurately and am able to make a first shot hit, spot a shot and correct and stay on an animal much better with the 223. I’m a more efficient and humane killer with the 223. Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m betting those who claim 223 isn’t as effective and efficient at killing elk sized game ( and larger as proven) have zero experience shooting 223 with caliber heavy bullets at elk sized game. As I said, correct me if I’m mistaken.

I believe that worst came to past I could kill every shot with a 22 LR IF, I could get in the position I want. With a 223, no sweat but again depends on me getting the position I want. I can shoot the mild to non recoiling loads lots better than recoiling loads also. But no matter what I still realize up to some point larger calibers are better if for no other reason better bullet's allowing the shooter to be off a little and still make the shot. While I say this about the 22 RF and 22 CF's I would never recommend either to anyone for even deer or antelope size game. I don't ever hardly ever recommend the 243 yet I have killed three deer with it with three shots. Something like the 223 is more prone to fail on big game for no other reason than the user may have selected a poor choice in bullet's and placed it wrong for what it is.

 

[Formidilosus]

I believe that worst came to past I could kill every shot with a 22 LR IF, I could get in the position I want. With a 223, no sweat but again depends on me getting the position I want. I can shoot the mild to non recoiling loads lots better than recoiling loads also. But no matter what I still realize up to some point larger calibers are better if for no other reason better bullet's allowing the shooter to be off a little and still make the shot. While I say this about the 22 RF and 22 CF's I would never recommend either to anyone for even deer or antelope size game. I don't ever hardly ever recommend the 243 yet I have killed three deer with it with three shots. Something like the 223 is more prone to fail on big game for no other reason than the user may have selected a poor choice in bullet's and placed it wrong for what it is.

“I’ve never done a thing, and I have no experience with it- but let me tell you how it is”.

Ok.


If only there were say a 400 page thread about heavy for caliber, match bullets from 223’s loaded with deer, well over 100 elk, a dozen or so moose, multiple mountain goats, 20-30 black bears, and multiple brown bear/grizzlies killed from the muzzle to 803 yards, with bullets going in every single imaginable angle on those animals, and hundreds of necropsies showing exactly what those bullets did…

 

[Don Fischer]

“I’ve never done a thing, and I have no experience with it- but let me tell you how it is”.

Ok.

Well to be honest I have killed deer with the 22RF and 22 CF, both 222Rem and 223 Rem.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well to be honest I have killed deer with the 22RF and 22 CF, both 222Rem and 223 Rem.

You’ve killed deer with 77gr TMK, 75/80/88gr ELD-M’s, or 80gr ELD-X’s?

 

[grappling_hook]

Well to be honest I have killed deer with the 22RF and 22 CF, both 222Rem and 223 Rem.

You should read the 223 thread from the beginning (https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-mountain-goat-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/), I think you’ll enjoy the discussion a lot (including some of the points you brought up above having been debated with hard data and extensive field experiences).

 

[Don Fischer]

You’ve killed deer with 77gr TMK, 75/80/88gr ELD-M’s, or 80gr ELD-X’s?

No but I have with 50 and 55gr varmint bullet's from 22 CF's. Have also killed three deer with the 243 and I don't recommend it either. Because something is possible is no reason to recommend it! Most my deer have been shot with the 25-06, 6.5x55, 7mm Rem Mag and 308 Win. have also killed a few with the 7x57 and one with the 338 Win Mag! If I was to believe I wanted to shoot deer with 75/77/80 and 86gr bullet's I'd step up to the 243 and shoot 90gr and/or 100gr bullets.

 

[Ozarkansas]

No but I have with 50 and 55gr varmint bullet's from 22 CF's. Have also killed three deer with the 243 and I don't recommend it either. Because something is possible is no reason to recommend it! Most my deer have been shot with the 25-06, 6.5x55, 7mm Rem Mag and 308 Win. have also killed a few with the 7x57 and one with the 338 Win Mag! If I was to believe I wanted to shoot deer with 75/77/80 and 66gr bullet's I'd step up to the 243 and shoot 90gr and/or 100gr bullets.

Why wouldn’t you recommend the .243 for deer? I’ve seen it punch through both shoulders of deer and big pigs, and the only bullets I’ve ever recovered have been in the offside hide. I love my 6.5x55 but when it comes to deer it can’t do anything to them that a .243 can’t.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

“I’ve never done a thing, and I have no experience with it- but let me tell you how it is”.

Ok.


If only there were say a 400 page thread about heavy for caliber, match bullets from 223’s loaded with deer, well over 100 elk, a dozen or so moose, multiple mountain goats, 20-30 black bears, and multiple brown bear/grizzlies killed from the muzzle to 803 yards, with bullets going in every single imaginable angle on those animals, and hundreds of necropsies showing exactly what those bullets did…

Don’t forget the walrus!!

 

[Formidilosus]

Don’t forget the walrus!!

My bad:

YES and a walrus.