What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[eric1115]

You guys sound like guys argue about how their three inch penis is big when compared to three inches of snow.

Can your micropenis get your old lady pregnant still?? Yes will her boyfriend’s big hog get her “more” pregnant? No. But will it hurt more in doing so most likely. The moral of this story is just shut up and shoot animals, if you want to use a 50 bmg go for it or don’t who gives a shit.

Incredibly insightful contribution to the conversation, thank you for your thoughtful commentary.

 

[wyosam]

That's a new one to me, I don't know anyone that's argued about a dick being compared to snow.

Oh I’ve often heard that the weatherman use the same ruler when predicting snow that is often used for measuring the manhood. Especially the guys doing the snow report at ski areas.


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[The_BuckingSpot]

Oh I’ve often heard that the weatherman use the same ruler when predicting snow that is often used for measuring the manhood. Especially the guys doing the snow report at ski areas.


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That actually makes sense.

 

[allstajacket]

I wasn’t a big fan of recoil. Opposite of “tough times create strong men” I suppose, and I’ve grown up in arguably one of the easiest times to be alive.

That being said, I still liked the 30cal and went with a 308. To me, the recoil (especially with a suppressor) is nearly non-existent. I can shoot all day if I want and not be sore. Plus it does work down range. This is just for Michigan white tail, and it doesn’t take much. I’d take a .223 if I had to, but that seems boring to me, among other things.

I grabbed a 300 win mag before I went to Montana and once again, the suppressor made it a breeze to shoot all day. The concussion was gone; and the recoil felt like that of my .308.

One thing I will say, those that live and breath marksmanship may be pushing the super small calibers, but we won’t see the average aspiring fudd and new hunter posting about how he wounded a deer with a .223 on his third ever time in the woods where he didn’t know better and took a weird angle shot. Or if the round was deflected by brush/branches and changed path resulting in a less than perfect hit.

I’m convinced that the super small calibers *can* do the job just fine in the right hands. I’m not convinced that it’s the best thing to put out there as a suggestion for everyone to use. Since it makes no difference to me, I’ll opt for the larger caliber that I equally enjoy shooting.

(I also have a 6.5 creedmoor that I have taken a deer with, I just prefer my larger calibers.)


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[eric1115]

I wasn’t a big fan of recoil. Opposite of “tough times create strong men” I suppose, and I’ve grown up in arguably one of the easiest times to be alive.

That being said, I still liked the 30cal and went with a 308. To me, the recoil (especially with a suppressor) is nearly non-existent. I can shoot all day if I want and not be sore. Plus it does work down range. This is just for Michigan white tail, and it doesn’t take much. I’d take a .223 if I had to, but that seems boring to me, among other things.

I grabbed a 300 win mag before I went to Montana and once again, the suppressor made it a breeze to shoot all day. The concussion was gone; and the recoil felt like that of my .308.

One thing I will say, those that live and breath marksmanship may be pushing the super small calibers, but we won’t see the average aspiring fudd and new hunter posting about how he wounded a deer with a .223 on his third ever time in the woods where he didn’t know better and took a weird angle shot. Or if the round was deflected by brush/branches and changed path resulting in a less than perfect hit.

I’m convinced that the super small calibers *can* do the job just fine in the right hands. I’m not convinced that it’s the best thing to put out there as a suggestion for everyone to use. Since it makes no difference to me, I’ll opt for the larger caliber that I equally enjoy shooting.

(I also have a 6.5 creedmoor that I have taken a deer with, I just prefer my larger calibers.)


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Have you read the .223 thread? It's not that .223 can do the job fine in the right hands. It's that .223 is, by the numbers of folks who actually measure/keep track, the highest success rate option for killing animals at conventional range (450ish yards and under) for all shooters. Especially new hunters/shooters.

This is certainly contingent on using bullets like the 77TMK that maximize wound channel. A mono in a .223 is going to be underwhelming. The TMK is devastating and if you go read that thread you'll see photo after photo of massive internal damage on deer, elk, moose, etc.

 

[mt terry d]

I'm curious how many 300 win mag elk hunters use rangefinders, especially
eastern whitetail hunters coming west. Ranging by guess and by gosh in the 3-600 yard
areas is a crap shoot. Yes, I was guilty.

How many actual hits were deemed a miss because they saw no hit and no
reaction from the elk other than walking over the ridge ( which is too difficult
a hike to check for blood) ?

It's good to keep in mind that every miss was potentially a wounded animal.

First round hit rates matter; especially if you have no idea where to make a follow up

 

[Choupique]

If nothing else, all these threads have given me a really good reason to build a MK12-ish AR and get my first suppressor on order.

Even though I haven't shot a single living thing with it yet, it sure is looking pretty cool and shoots great. It certainly is a whole lot more fun to shoot 100 rounds for $50 instead of 20 rounds for $60 and a pretty good ass whipping from the .338 every time.

I'm still ultra nervous about how good the blood trails will be, but I've vowed to leave the .338 in the safe till I get a deer with the .223 and 73gr ELDM's this year.

 

[woods89]

Have you read the .223 thread? It's not that .223 can do the job fine in the right hands. It's that .223 is, by the numbers of folks who actually measure/keep track, the highest success rate option for killing animals at conventional range (450ish yards and under) for all shooters. Especially new hunters/shooters.

This is certainly contingent on using bullets like the 77TMK that maximize wound channel. A mono in a .223 is going to be underwhelming. The TMK is devastating and if you go read that thread you'll see photo after photo of massive internal damage on deer, elk, moose, etc.

I've said it before on here, but I have been using a 223 with 69 gr TMK for a few years now for whitetails. My other rifle is a 10 lb 6.5 CM, so not a high level of recoil either. I have been finding, though, that while I shoot both of them similarly at the range, there is a marked difference to how effective I am in the field with that 223. It's not that I don't shoot the 6.5 well, but my field shooting is consistent with the 223 to a level that I did not anticipate.

I had to experience it to see it.

 

[Pharmseller]

The last elk I shot with my muzzleloader, .54 caliber, one ounce flat nose bullet - literally looked like the wicked witch of the west shoved the blunt end of her broomstick through the elk.... flipped the elk over (bad idea) and I got a face full of splatter from the chest compression when it hit the ground. haha.

Funny story, years ago I shot a smallish Blacktail doe with a 12 ga slug, pass through. She was trotting when I shot and the slug went through her chest, no big bones. She kept going until she ran out of blood.

The slug measured .729”. Probably carried a lot of energy at 30 yards.

 

[Shraggs]

There's a lot of truth to this. I'd also add in that it pretty much set the bar for a "man's cartridge" - so anything less than .30cal is a clear admission to being a sissy...unless it's based around a 30-06 casing. Then it's okay. I guess.

Frankly though, it would be disingenuous to not point out that Form deserves a metric ton of credit for the "rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges". After systematically documenting and experimenting and sharing all of his learnings over the course of years, starting with traditional big-game cartridges and varying bullets, and working his way down over those years to what seemed to provide the best performance overall. That happened to be tipped match bullets in low-recoiling, small-caliber loadings. I point that out because it's not obvious at first when you first encounter Rokslide and what has essentially become somewhat common knowledge here. It's also worth pointing out, because of the immense work involved in all of that learning and experimenting he did, documenting the data, and sharing it. And, because of the titanic levels of $h*t that have been thrown at him because of it, and his persistence in sharing those uncomfortable truths people don't like hearing.

Great point, for those that may not know the whole history here, or have no clue about some of the threads and data. And it’s not just the 223 thread…

In the beginning Form introduced why people miss and the source of error - one of which “most hunters and shooters suck”, further stating that archers will shoot hundreds or 1000s of arrows before season and they only check zero with their rifle. The suggestion for a matching bolt action in 223 for high volume meaningful training was introduced.

Maybe sneaky, but at some point later comments appeared like - with the right bullet a 223 is very capable on big game…

I believe that Form is and has answered the questions implied in many threads with why we miss. As someone pointed out higher recoil is documented and of course solid equipment and proper mounting.

So the notion that folks are just opting for small calibers demeans a body of discussion facilitated by someone who’s shooting and training various skill levels and with many calibers and hundreds of thousands of rounds.

 

[Pharmseller]

There’s no substitute for placement. I’m a much, much better shot with Varmint Cong (my Tikka .223) than with any other rifle.

Dinner last night, first steaks from this year’s kill.



Perfect for my boy, I prefer a bit more red.

 

[RockAndSage]

So the notion that folks are just opting for small calibers demeans a body of discussion facilitated by someone who’s shooting and training various skill levels and with many calibers and hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Not sure if you were getting at this in mentioning training, but it seems a huge volume of his insights also come from being an instructor, separate from hunting and teaching S2H. So, documented and anecdotal insights in what works, over lots of years and lots of students. And, having had lots of instructors himself.

The stuff he shares is a double-edged sword - I personally value and respect that he wants the info to stand on its own, without any appeal to authority, or name-dropping of where he has worked or with whom he has worked. Without that though, and without him link-dropping a dozen past threads to catch people up, a lot of the time all of this backstory of the data and its evolution is just not known to the new people in a convo, or even that he's at the center of it. He'll just drop a truth bomb like a rando that leaves a new person stuttering with snorts of derision at best, and fudd-slinging their own 'facts' in a barrage of outraged counter-argument at worst.

 

[LongWayAround]

One thing I will say, those that live and breath marksmanship may be pushing the super small calibers, but we won’t see the average aspiring fudd and new hunter posting about how he wounded a deer with a .223 on his third ever time in the woods where he didn’t know better and took a weird angle shot. Or if the round was deflected by brush/branches and changed path resulting in a less than perfect hit.

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Those guys are probably equally not inclined to post how they made a bad shot with their WinMag.

All bullets deflect in brush.

 

[Shraggs]

I wasn’t a big fan of recoil. Opposite of “tough times create strong men” I suppose, and I’ve grown up in arguably one of the easiest times to be alive.

That being said, I still liked the 30cal and went with a 308. To me, the recoil (especially with a suppressor) is nearly non-existent. I can shoot all day if I want and not be sore. Plus it does work down range. This is just for Michigan white tail, and it doesn’t take much. I’d take a .223 if I had to, but that seems boring to me, among other things.

I grabbed a 300 win mag before I went to Montana and once again, the suppressor made it a breeze to shoot all day. The concussion was gone; and the recoil felt like that of my .308.

One thing I will say, those that live and breath marksmanship may be pushing the super small calibers, but we won’t see the average aspiring fudd and new hunter posting about how he wounded a deer with a .223 on his third ever time in the woods where he didn’t know better and took a weird angle shot. Or if the round was deflected by brush/branches and changed path resulting in a less than perfect hit.

I’m convinced that the super small calibers *can* do the job just fine in the right hands. I’m not convinced that it’s the best thing to put out there as a suggestion for everyone to use. Since it makes no difference to me, I’ll opt for the larger caliber that I equally enjoy shooting.

(I also have a 6.5 creedmoor that I have taken a deer with, I just prefer my larger calibers.)


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This reply, no offense exemplifies another critical theme I feel Form has emphasized. I think, I feel, I believe is a poor basis to judge or make decisions. And we’ve seen it play out a dozen times in the 223 thread, new people only armed with their opinions based on what they do, which is the correct way…, without ever objectively trying or investigating the alternative ways. Just dismiss as stated here. Most people who even support big cal, start young shooters out on small calibers not 16lb of recoil for better margin of error.

Margin for error is first and foremost skilled ability to hit vitals regardless of your shooting position - despite this opinion objectively most shooters do better with lighter recoil. The data is here in many threads and outside of rokslide if you pursue learning.

So, if someone is objectively a better shooter and in all positions hunting oriented, what are the possibilities of using small calibers that improved your shooting.

To tie back to RockandSage great comments: nobody has ever said big cal and premium controlled expansion don’t kill. However if a hunter shoots better with lower recoil (and many do) using small calibers with very different bullets changes the wounding dynamically. A 223 with 77 tmk will rival or exceed a 308 with 165 accubonds at normal ranges. And to add, as evidenced in the 223 thread, a 30 cal shooting tmks scales up with caliber and does horrific damage to the point if you’re interested in meat from your kill it is compromised. So using a controlled expansion bullet in a big cal, or a small cal with high fragmenting type bullets.

The later being more forgiving to shoot well and gives a massive advantage in margin for error based on tissue damage, that you may not want theses bullets in large cal but clearly makes 22 thru 6mm very lethal compared to the typical 308, 06, 270 with accubonds or monos.

I am puzzled why the angst. Why ignore something that works so very well based on opinion you feel is less lethal. I use both as they both work. Ie, if I am at all concerned that a great hit with small cal and animal could go 20 yards with little blood trail in terrain that is impossible to track or see I may opt for a bullet that I know will exit in a bigger cal gun even if it may take longer to die. Although I hear the argument about severe hard quartering shots presumably going thru half the animal that only a big powerful cal with a mono is the answer a bit of a red herring for me. I’d pass maybe on what is repeatedly argued if using my 233, maybe not with my 6 mm 108 - but honestly if we all got to a skill level of Form I’d just shoot it the back of the neck whike running away at 900 yards with the weapon I absolutely can shoot well in any terrain in demand.

 

[RockAndSage]

And to add, as evidenced in the 223 thread, a 30 cal shooting tmks scales up with caliber and does horrific damage to the point if you’re interested in meat from your kill it is compromised.

Shraggs is talking fist-sized entrance holes here - photos in threads of 7mms and .30cals with tipped match bullets and what they do hide-on, hide-off, body cavity...they leave no margin for error if you want to keep your meat. Shoot a little far forward and hit a shoulder, both shoulders on a deer are bloodshot and just blasted with frag.

I was on this website for a good year before I asked about what tipped match bullets do when they're bigger than .223, and had people point me to those photos, or share them in response. So, it's not always a part of the convo, especially not in side threads. Not the evidence. But that damage was so severe that I decided I wouldn't use tipped match bullets in anything bigger than 6mm for taking game - and would "limit" myself to bonded or mono in larger.

 

[allstajacket]

This reply, no offense exemplifies another critical theme I feel Form has emphasized. I think, I feel, I believe is a poor basis to judge or make decisions. And we’ve seen it play out a dozen times in the 223 thread, new people only armed with their opinions based on what they do, which is the correct way…, without ever objectively trying or investigating the alternative ways. Just dismiss as stated here. Most people who even support big cal, start young shooters out on small calibers not 16lb of recoil for better margin of error.

Margin for error is first and foremost skilled ability to hit vitals regardless of your shooting position - despite this opinion objectively most shooters do better with lighter recoil. The data is here in many threads and outside of rokslide if you pursue learning.

So, if someone is objectively a better shooter and in all positions hunting oriented, what are the possibilities of using small calibers that improved your shooting.

To tie back to RockandSage great comments: nobody has ever said big cal and premium controlled expansion don’t kill. However if a hunter shoots better with lower recoil (and many do) using small calibers with very different bullets changes the wounding dynamically. A 223 with 77 tmk will rival or exceed a 308 with 165 accubonds at normal ranges. And to add, as evidenced in the 223 thread, a 30 cal shooting tmks scales up with caliber and does horrific damage to the point if you’re interested in meat from your kill it is compromised. So using a controlled expansion bullet in a big cal, or a small cal with high fragmenting type bullets.

The later being more forgiving to shoot well and gives a massive advantage in margin for error based on tissue damage, that you may not want theses bullets in large cal but clearly makes 22 thru 6mm very lethal compared to the typical 308, 06, 270 with accubonds or monos.

I am puzzled why the angst. Why ignore something that works so very well based on opinion you feel is less lethal. I use both as they both work. Ie, if I am at all concerned that a great hit with small cal and animal could go 20 yards with little blood trail in terrain that is impossible to track or see I may opt for a bullet that I know will exit in a bigger cal gun even if it may take longer to die. Although I hear the argument about severe hard quartering shots presumably going thru half the animal that only a big powerful cal with a mono is the answer a bit of a red herring for me. I’d pass maybe on what is repeatedly argued if using my 233, maybe not with my 6 mm 108 - but honestly if we all got to a skill level of Form I’d just shoot it the back of the neck whike running away at 900 yards with the weapon I absolutely can shoot well in any terrain in demand.

From what I’ve seen, I’d consider even 77tmk on whitetail to cause excessive damage. It makes a mess. I prefer a nice clean exit wound which allows for quick blood loss. 30cal 165 interlock does this wonderfully. This year I’m giving some 150’s a try, and maybe some 150gr accubonds. If I get the opportunity, I’ll take another deer with 77tmk to compare in my own application/setting.


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[Q_Sertorius]

And if you are going to limit the amount of damage you are going to do, then why not start with yourself? Why take all that recoil if you are going to use a less effective bullet?

The cartridge is a delivery mechanism for the bullet. There is a place for larger cartridges, but it is in delivering bullets to greater distances, not to have “more margin for error.”

 

[Q_Sertorius]

A lot of these discussions read like, “I want to increase my fertility, so I am getting penis enlargement surgery. And a vasectomy.”

 

[allstajacket]

And if you are going to limit the amount of damage you are going to do, then why not start with yourself? Why take all that recoil if you are going to use a less effective bullet?

The cartridge is a delivery mechanism for the bullet. There is a place for larger cartridges, but it is in delivering bullets to greater distances, not to have “more margin for error.”

“All that recoil” when talking about .308? Are we from the same planet? Somewhere in the timeline people got confused and decided it was their duty to try to change what other people do, and take great care and interest in their business. There’s really no need to talk down on someone because they like hunting with a different caliber than you do..


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[Choupique]

I am puzzled why the angst. Why ignore something that works so very well based on opinion you feel is less lethal.

Its just a tough pill to swallow for most of us. You're talking about upending a couple generations of embedded common knowledge.

Hell I've read all of it, I'm an engineer, can't deny the data, still having to convince myself to try it. A lot of us might only get to shoot one deer a year. It's tough to go out and experiment with that one deer a year when that experiment is a direct contradiction to what you've known your whole life.