What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Macintosh]

I have this weird feeling like Ive been here before. So odd.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Military ammo isn't necessarily designed to kill. In fact, even the wounding capability of military ammo is limited by international agreement.

He stated that the military ammo was not designed to kill efficiently ie. Ball ammo… but if the military was allowed to shoot lightly jacketed HP that were tipped, it would be that much more devastating…

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

There is no way to know what you will get from "target" bullets without somebody trying them. My guess is they are brand specific like "hunting" bullets.

Berger says their target bullets have a heavier jacket to stand up to a hotter barrel common in more rapid fire. Other manufacturers may or may not do something similar. Note: this is not an endorsement of Berger ... just passing along information.

Hunting with Match Bullets- Tested by Ultimate Reloader
Hunting vs Match Bullets part 2

 

[SC HUNTER]

I'm not one to say "you must shoot this caliber and bullet to kill deer or else" because everybody is different. I have had the great fortune in life to grow up in Southwest Georgia in an area that has a very high deer population. I have also had the privilege to work for multiple farmers/plantation owners and be on crop depredation permits for 15 years of my life. I have shot and killed hundreds and hundreds of deer and pigs with cartridges from a 22 hornet to a 375 h&h. I killed the majority of those deer on permits using a 223, 22-250 or 220 swift shooting 55 grain soft points in the 223 and 55 grain vmax in the other 2. I have no issue going anywhere in the country and shooting any deer with a 223, 22-250 or 220 swift with the appropriate bullet.

I also own larger rifles up to a few different .30's but 99% of my hunting is done with a 6.5 creedmoor that is suppressed. I shoot it very well, my wife shoots it well and my kids shoot it well. Will I never buy another 300 win mag? I'll say that's false but its really only because I like guns and shooting different stuff.

People have realized that you do not have to shoot a hard kicking 300 win mag or wsm or a 7stw to kill animals dead as a hammer with no drama. Plus the smaller rounds are cheaper and easier to practice with.

 

[fwafwow]

Much like in the threads cited by the OP, there are people who will disagree with the premise therein. I doubt that anyone really cares if those people disagree, and no one is mad either. If someone posts "school me on my first deer/elk/moose rifle cartridge choice" and someone points to the RS Shift threads, that doesn't mean that's anything other than an attempt to reply to the question. If you disagree with that being pointed out and have a different view on the best deer/elk/moose cartridge, it would IMHO be great to support that view with something - anything - other than custom or tradition or "everyone knows X is the minimum for killing Y".

It does get frustrating (at least for me) when the debate isn't intellectually honest - meaning doing anything other than pointing out errors in facts, or errors in logic. Instead there are feelings, name calling ("flat bill"), deflection, denial, etc. I also believe that many will take a position without having read those threads (often evidenced by making counterpoints that have been addressed many times before).

To try to be intellectually honest myself, I think the best counter argument I have seen in the RS Shift debate relates to very large predators - at least when you are talking about carrying a rifle loaded at the lower end of the RS School of Thinking. And while I don't doubt the rationale still holds true - that a 223 77gr TMK could kill a carnivore or Cape Buffalo - there is a materially different downside (to me) of being wrong. So a 130gr TMK would be better, and a higher weight - but those projectiles could still fit within the RSST - heavier for caliber bullets (unless I've misunderstood something).

 

[ElPollo]

Damn, I love Rokslide. It’s like a BBC nature special where you get to watch idiots put on territorial displays. I can just hear David Attenborough saying “And now the moron tries to do math and physics to impress the rest of the herd. But he fails and is eaten by a crocodile.”

 

[Squincher]

Again, you are speaking out of ignorance. There are several reasons for a company to say “not designed for hunting”- all of which have been hashed out in the threads you haven’t taken the time to read.

I will make this one easy- the 77gr TMK was specially and purposely requested to create the largest wound channel possible from a mag fed 233/5.56 while still penetrating 12-14”.


This is true for quite a few of the “match” bullets that you have never killed with but are arguing how they work.

I have been skeptical in the past, but I didn't post in this thread they don't work, or that you shouldn't use them, did I? I just prefer a different approach. If we are both standing over dead animals, your approach isn't "better" just because you like it more. In fact, my initial post in this thread simply addressed what I believe to be the social aspect of changing viewpoints. Then you launched a pedantic diatribe against what you thought you read. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had anything to add beyond my initial post.

 

[Reburn]

If we are both standing over dead animals, your approach isn't "better" just because you like it more.

You're assumumtions of your 100% success rate are telling that you aren't honest with yourself and arent having a honest conversation.

Fact is lighter recoiling calibers are shot more accurately then big boomers, therefore your hit rates increase and your wounded and rodeo animals decreases.

Not to mention follow up shots are faster and easier.

 

[jimh406]

Fact is lighter recoiling calibers are shot more accurately then big boomers, therefore your hit rates increase and your wounded and rodeo animals decreases.

You're making an assumption of misses. I don't think that is a given if you take shots within your skills.

 

[Macintosh]

@Squincher , posting that small caliber bullets are on the fringe of capability is pretty darn close to saying they arent reliable killers, and is a stretch at best if you've been paying attention. And avoiding taking into account recoil and shootability as relevant factors also goes beyond mere preference--that is well documented beyond rokslide as a significant contributing factor to better accuracy and better ability to make an effective followup--that part is fact and is not debatable, increased recoil is universally a detriment to better shooting. And your post about the social aspect was at best an (intentionally?) condescending poke at people that you have no idea what generation they are actually from, and deflects addressing the actual issue, which is using data to inform decisions...that you explicitly stated were a fad that wold be disproven. Which is, again, awfully close to saying that small caliber bullets dont work.

 

[4cMuley]

Military ammo isn't necessarily designed to kill. In fact, even the wounding capability of military ammo is limited by international agreement.

The preferred 5.56 round for any of our military SOF units is 77gr otm because they put people down hard

 

[Reburn]

You're making an assumption of misses. I don't think that is a given if you take shots within your skills.

If you say you have never missed or wouded an animal you either; Have never shot an animal very far (sub 150), have not shot many or are a liar.

Which one are you?

 

[KenLee]

Black Hills 5.56 77 Gr TMK Ammunition

Black Hills TMK 5.56 77 Gr. Sierra Ammo 77 Gr. TMK Velocity: 2750 FPS 50ct box The products offered for sale on this page can expose you to chemicals, including Lead, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. For...

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Merry christmas

Thanks. I ordered some.
Now find us some 60 gr 22-250 Partitions

 

[jimh406]

If you say you have never missed or wouded an animal you either; Have never shot an animal very far (sub 150), have not shot many or are a liar.

Those are obviously not the only possibilities.

Big game animals have huge vital zones. Many of us are plenty capable of sub-MOA with slightly larger groups in field conditions.

 

[Macintosh]

Its not even necessarily an issue of misses, it can just as easily be an issue of better hits versus lesser hits, or by virtue of not developing a flinch and practicing a lot your "staying within your skills" looking different than your former self or the next guy. it doesnt have to be a black/white thing. Again, it's not an issue of larger calibers not working...they clearly do and no one is suggesting otherwise. Its an issue of whether the larger caliber accomplishes something additional that has benefit, and if the recoil is helpful or neutral or detrimental. There is no situation on earth where increased recoil is anything except detrimental. That doesnt mean its always going to change the outcome, it simply means that if things align poorly it has greater potential to affect the outcome negatively.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Deer Rifles: It Doesn't Take a Cannon

He limits his personal choices for elk to larger cartridges. However, he has many good points and his overall focus on bullets is appreciated. Watch to the end.

 

[jimh406]

Its not even necessarily an issue of misses, it can just as easily be an issue of better hits versus lesser hits, or by virtue of not developing a flinch and practicing a lot your "staying within your skills" looking different than your former self or the next guy. it doesnt have to be a black/white thing.

There are multiple ways to keep from developing a flinch with a magnum or any other rifle. It's not a given, but magnums aren't for everyone. Well, no caliber is.

I agree it's not a black/white thing, and I think most of us would rather someone use a different caliber gun than miss with a magnum. But there are a lot of calibers between tiny and magnum. It's important for people to find something that works for them somewhere on that spectrum. Hopefully, they do that before they wound or miss animals repeatedly.

 

[Bluefish]

While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts.

if you read between the lines they say the tmk doesn’t expand on Varmits. That’s a 3” wide animal, probably too thick a jacket. Doesn’t mean they won’t expand on a deer which is a 12-18” across. I don’t think anyone is saying to use a light for caliber varmit bullet.

this is also why it’s going to be a long process to change minds and regulations. Colorado for one, doesn’t allow 223 for elk. If the law is changed it needs to be specific enough to say what to use as not every 223 bullet will do the job.

 

[Reburn]

Those are obviously not the only possibilities.

Big game animals have huge vital zones. Many of us are plenty capable of sub-MOA with slightly larger groups in field conditions.

Your just arguing to argue.
I think we can all guess which of the 3 you are.
Thanks for your input.

 

[jimh406]

Thanks for your input.

You are welcome.