WEZ hit rates.

[solarshooter]

Am I reading it right that at 5000’ DA you have a .1 Mil correction at 260 yards? It’s that just to hit vitals? Or are you shooting a further zero than 100 yards.

I just have to be honest, none of this is jiving with my short experience shooting Mils.

Like I know you study it and now your stuff for sure, but these blanket numbers aren’t adding up to me. Please elaborate if you don’t mind

Here's a plot comparing quickdrop to actual trajectory for my 20" 284, which admittedly is a near "perfect" match for straight quickdrop with no corrections applied:


Yes I have a large error in mils (up to 0.5) from about 150-250, but it's still less than 4" of poi error. From about 300 to >800 I'm within 2" using quickdrop. Personally, for anything under 250 or so, since those shots are the most likely to be rushed, I may not even dial, I might just hold 0-1mils high based on my intuitive assessment of range.

No, he’s taking a -.5 correction for the change in DA. His base 260 is .6. .6 -.5 = 0.1. I can’t say that’s correct for the change in DA but that’s what he’s doing.

This is the correct math. But I should've used the actual number for this gun of 0.3 knowing this crowd! And I further screwed up by applying the correction to the sub-400 yardage instead of just the 2 greater than 400. Typing faster than thinking. Here's the same plot for 8kft and using a 0.3 correction factor beyond 400yds:

But I get that it might be generic and just kind of like "these corrections keep me in the vitals at these distances. They aren't perfect, just fast, and close enough".

Yes, this is the key. And at longer ranges the error is within the noise enough it's not going to strongly influence your hit rate.

 

[huntnful]

Here's a plot comparing quickdrop to actual trajectory for my 20" 284, which admittedly is a near "perfect" match for straight quickdrop with no corrections applied:
View attachment 962016
View attachment 962015
Yes I have a large error in mils (up to 0.5) from about 150-250, but it's still less than 4" of poi error. From about 300 to >800 I'm within 2" using quickdrop. Personally, for anything under 250 or so, since those shots are the most likely to be rushed, I may not even dial, I might just hold 0-1mils high based on my intuitive assessment of range.


This is the correct math. But I should've used the actual number for this gun of 0.3 knowing this crowd! And I further screwed up by applying the correction to the sub-400 yardage instead of just the 2 greater than 400. Typing faster than thinking. Here's the same plot for 8kft and using a 0.3 correction factor beyond 400yds:
View attachment 962033



Yes, this is the key. And at longer ranges the error is within the noise enough it's not going to strongly influence your hit rate.

Thank you for the clarification!

 

[HuntHarder]

Unless your ballistic rangefinder reads the wind on the fly, yeah there is a benefit to mils for wind holds. For most folks who dont practice and shoot with wind brackets and aren't going to use it hunting, they obviously wouldn't see that benefit.

Interesting. Either mils or MOA, you have to be able to accurately call the wind. My 6.5 at 550 has a .75moa change in wind hold based on a right to left wind vs. A left to right wind 10 mph @ 90*. How does mils quick wind account for that? I use AB for my calcs and overall, I would say it's been pretty spot on.

 

[BBob]

Yes I have a large error in mils (up to 0.5) from about 150-250, but it's still less than 4" of poi error. From about 300 to >800 I'm within 2" using quickdrop. Personally, for anything under 250 or so, since those shots are the most likely to be rushed, I may not even dial, I might just hold 0-1mils high based on my intuitive assessment of range.

4” error no biggie on an elk hunt but might not be ideal on Coues hunt. Something to consider for people reading all of this.

FWIW I’m always pre-dialed up with a 200-250 correction and hold off from there in a rushed situation. I know people that are still old school that don’t dial and this is always their rebuttable to dialing. “What are you going to do when you jump a big buck and you have to pull up quick and shoot?”. My response is I walk around with a 200-250 yd zero and hold off accordingly just as you do My hunting style and method almost never results in jumping bucks anyway so it’s almost a moot point.

 

[solarshooter]

I'm going to be 100% honest. I think my perspective on "it doesn't matter much" stems from shooting high BC bullets at fast speeds. Shooting slow, low BC bullets, EVERYTHING matters and you're constantly needing make these corrections at all standard hunting distances. I'm not sure if people realize the mental handicap they're potentially bringing upon themselves doing that. Here's a scenario I just had earlier this year on an aoudad.

Trying to get 3 people into range. Sheep start to spook (excellent eyesight). I range them. 580 yards. Wind is for sure blowing right to left, but not ripping. I don't check the wind, I don't guess the wind. It's for sure under 10 MPH. Sheep is facing left. I lay down, hold the right edge of lungs and send it. DRT. It can't get any faster than that. I didn't hold any MOA. I rarely hold any "MOA" now that I think of it. I hold "windy side of vitals".

The bull I just killed at 500. Right to left wind, maybe 5 MPH (ended up being less), didn't make an MOA hold. Held center the shoulder and sent it. There's 15" of forgiveness there. I don't have to worry about it.

That's exactly why my perspective of "it doesn't matter that much" is skewed now that I'm typing it out loud. Because it really doesn't matter in 90% of the scenarios I'm in. I'm not holding shit, I holding edges of vitals lol.

I'm not even out of vitals until there's a 10 MPH wind at 550 yards. And beyond that with more wind than that, I'm likely not shooting at an animal personally. When wind is less, and distance is further, I take a lot of time before shooting.

Everyone needs to be shooting at least a 22CM with 80's at 3300. You won't be out of the vitals much either hahaha.

I totally understand this perspective. My hunting buddy @stan_wa shoots a 28 Nos with a 26" barrel and GENEROUS helping of N570 pushing Berger 195s at 3k+ fps. It's a solid 10mph gun, and in practical scenarios, the wind required to push that bullet out of the vitals at reasonable ranges is strong enough you'd think twice about shooting. Or I would at least.

 

[huntnful]

Unless your ballistic rangefinder reads the wind on the fly, yeah there is a benefit to mils for wind holds. For most folks who dont practice and shoot with wind brackets and aren't going to use it hunting, they obviously wouldn't see that benefit.

This encompasses me for sure. I put in my intial wind guess.

At 1000 yards it says to hold 2 MOA. I feel the wind slow down, I hold 1.5 MOA. Speed up, I hold 2.5 MOA. I don’t really have a “system” at all.

I definitely think if I didn’t have a wind input in my rangefinder to get the initial baseline hold, that it would be more difficult to calculate my wind hold in my head at a given yardage based on what I guess the wind at.

 

[TimberHunter]

Interesting. Either mils or MOA, you have to be able to accurately call the wind. My 6.5 at 550 has a .75moa change in wind hold based on a right to left wind vs. A left to right wind 10 mph @ 90*. How does mils quick wind account for that? I use AB for my calcs and overall, I would say it's been pretty spot on.

Read up on gun wind MPH and how quick mils can be for changing conditions. MOA requires memorization of random values at certain wind speeds where mils requires just knowing basic formulas done in your head


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[huntnful]

I totally understand this perspective. My hunting buddy @stan_wa shoots a 28 Nos with a 26" barrel and GENEROUS helping of N570 pushing Berger 195s at 3k+ fps. It's a solid 10mph gun, and in practical scenarios, the wind required to push that bullet out of the vitals at reasonable ranges is strong enough you'd think twice about shooting. Or I would at least.

I appreciate you acknowledging and understanding my caveman approach lol.

 

[solarshooter]

FWIW I’m always pre-dialed up with a 200-250 correction and hold off from there in a rushed situation

Potato potato. I'd argue it's a little more "correct" technique to leave the turret at 0 unless dialing to a specific range, so that then the reticle is useful at all ranges. And with a good ffp mil reticle it's so easy to hold why not...

My 6.5 at 550 has a .75moa change in wind hold based on a right to left wind vs. A left to right wind 10 mph @ 90*. How does mils quick wind account for that? I use AB for my calcs and overall, I would say it's been pretty spot on.

This is likely spin drift and/or aerodynamic jump. Quickdrop does not account for this, but if you look at this error compared to the overall error you have in estimating wind speed and direction, it really doesn't matter. It's a 10% effect on a prediction which might already have 30-50% error. You'd have to take ALOT of shots to ever detect that effect amidst all that other error.

 

[solarshooter]

I appreciate you acknowledging and understanding my caveman approach lol.

My main objection with shooting the mega-lasers is the only way to tolerate it is to use an aggressive muzzle break, and I find those extremely unpleasant to shoot or be around. It also totally breaks the benefit of everyone else in the group having suppressors and being able to communicate up to and through the shot without having ear pro in. Or being able to take snapshots without going def. Really depends on the type of hunting and shooting you do, which is why he also has a shorter suppressed 6CM that he uses when quarters are a little tighter. I understand you live in CA so suppressors aren't an option, which makes the decision to run a break a little easier.

 

[HuntHarder]

Read up on gun wind MPH and how quick mils can be for changing conditions. MOA requires memorization of random values at certain wind speeds where mils requires just knowing basic formulas done in your head


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I've read up on it. I still don't see how it accounts for wind direction. I am far less experienced or technical than most of you at long range. I typically input a rough generic wind in and compensate 1 way or another based on where I think the wind actually is. Typically 5mph and split the difference on direction difference. If I think its closer to 10mph, I double my #. If I have all the time in the world, I will input exact guessed wind and send it. My weakest link in LR is guessing wind across varying terrain. Shooting in different locations has helped me a ton, but I still do not consider myself a great wind caller.

 

[huntnful]

My main objection with shooting the mega-lasers is the only way to tolerate it is to use an aggressive muzzle break, and I find those extremely unpleasant to shoot or be around. It also totally breaks the benefit of everyone else in the group having suppressors and being able to communicate up to and through the shot without having ear pro in. Or being able to take snapshots without going def. Really depends on the type of hunting and shooting you do, which is why he also has a shorter suppressed 6CM that he uses when quarters are a little tighter. I understand you live in CA so suppressors aren't an option, which makes the decision to run a break a little easier.

Definitely agree all the way around here. Basically I refuse to shoot a rifle, especially a muzzle braked rifle, without ear protection. So throughout the day, when working through any country that might hold animals, or definitely working towards an animal I spotted, I use OTTO ear pro. I've had them in for 10 straight hours sometimes. Definitely not convenient, but also not a terribly big deal. My 10lb bare muzzle 22CM feels about the same recoil as my 12lb braked 7-300 NMI. The muzzle brakes help tremendously if you're willing to work around them in the field. BUT, I have never hunted with anyone with a suppressor, and can't own one myself, so that probably why it doesn't seem like a big deal to me to have ear pro in, and maybe get dusted a little when I take a shot in a dry environment.

I'd probably be singing a different tune if I could use a suppressor.

 

[wind gypsy]

Interesting. Either mils or MOA, you have to be able to accurately call the wind. My 6.5 at 550 has a .75moa change in wind hold based on a right to left wind vs. A left to right wind 10 mph @ 90*. How does mils quick wind account for that? I use AB for my calcs and overall, I would say it's been pretty spot on.

Good question. Probably about half of that is spin drift. The other half might be aerodynamic jump and possibly exaggerated? Spin drift is going to be a constant at given distance. Basically at that distance id just assume 0.1 mil right for spin drift. The other half (if it's AJ) can seem over reported. If it's windy enough that it's a factor I probably shouldn't be shooting at an animal.

So basically rather than relying on a calculator to tell wind holds, using MPH gun and maybe adding a 0.1mil right (for RH twist barrels). I'll say that with some practice w/ binos like the sig 10k g2 you can adjust wind pretty quick in the binos.

 

[Okie_Poke]

I've read up on it. I still don't see how it accounts for wind direction. I am far less experienced or technical than most of you at long range.

I am even less so and would also like to hear the explanation from the more experienced as well. But, my understanding---which may well be wrong---from what I've read and my thinking about it, is that mph gun simply doesn't account for that as it's not really meant for past 600(ish) yards. That's why you turn off earth-based effects in yoru solver when trying to figure out what your wind number is. I understand it to be a quick approximation that's generally "close enough" out to mid-range, but not really intended for true long range.

Using your stated difference of 3/4 MOA at 550 as an example, that's between 4 1/4 - 4 1/2 inches at that distance. By turning the earth-based effects off to get your wind number, you're effectively splitting that difference. (For example, the difference for me at the same distance is 3.3 vs 3.9 MOA; with effects turned off it's 3.6 for both). Whether that's close enough for your application I can't opine.

ETA: When I run the same exercise in my solver using MILS as my output, the difference between left and right wind with earth-based effetcts on is .1 mil (1.0 vs 1.1) using your scenario (on my gun). Quick wind with a 10 would be 1.0+ (5 mph gun). So yeah, we're splitting hairs there.

 

[Schmo]

Definitely agree all the way around here. Basically I refuse to shoot a rifle, especially a muzzle braked rifle, without ear protection. So throughout the day, when working through any country that might hold animals, or definitely working towards an animal I spotted, I use OTTO ear pro. I've had them in for 10 straight hours sometimes. Definitely not convenient, but also not a terribly big deal. My 10lb bare muzzle 22CM feels about the same recoil as my 12lb braked 7-300 NMI. The muzzle brakes help tremendously if you're willing to work around them in the field. BUT, I have never hunted with anyone with a suppressor, and can't own one myself, so that probably why it doesn't seem like a big deal to me to have ear pro in, and maybe get dusted a little when I take a shot in a dry environment.

I'd probably be singing a different tune if I could use a suppressor.

Yeah man,
This is the first year for me and my buddy to hunt suppressed. Never want to hunt without being suppressed again. Wish you had to option!

 

[Chris in TN]

Read up on gun wind MPH and how quick mils can be for changing conditions. MOA requires memorization of random values at certain wind speeds where mils requires just knowing basic formulas done in your head


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This (bolded part) isn't quite correct. Both require some basic factor that you remember, plus the formula itself.

The vast majority of rifles are going to require one moa of correction in a 10mph crosswind at some point between 100 and 300 yards. With higher BC bullets you can almost double that range before you have to more than double the correction, with lower BC bullets you can fudge your numbers a bit - instead of figuring your 1moa 10mph correction, just figure your 2moa 10mph correction distance and halve it, then round to the nearest bigger number that you can work with - then multiply that by whatever correction factor you need to account for range and wind speed estimation/direction. If you have a 225 yard rifle and the range is 575, that's about a factor of 2.5. So 2.5 moa of wind hold in a full value 10mph. If the wind is actually more like 15mph, you spitball multiplying that by 1.5, so now you're at 3.75moa, or 4 moa if you're in a hurry, of wind.

In short, if you can't do that math, you are likely well beyond the point at which you need to be either using an app to make more precise adjustments, or you are past the actual range you should be shooting at.

Note that I am not saying that moa is a superior math system to mrad. I am simply saying that simple hacks can be developed for either, and at the end of the day, neither system is mathematically superior. Both work well. I have scopes based in both. I even still have one that's moa clicks and mrad reticle. It isn't ideal but at the end of the day I think it's simply worth mentioning that there is a very good reason to reject this one-size-must-fit-all one-way-to-do-everything approach that people take that leads them to be overly dogmatic about moa vs mrad. The better you understand math, the faster you realize that such people are simply wrong. Sure, there's value in teaching people *one* way to do things. But it isn't worth pretending no other way exists.

 

[huntnful]

I am even less so and would also like to hear the explanation from the more experienced as well. But, my understanding---which may well be wrong---from what I've read and my thinking about it, is that mph gun simply doesn't account for that as it's not really meant for past 600(ish) yards. That's why you turn off earth-based effects in yoru solver when trying to figure out what your wind number is. I understand it to be a quick approximation that's generally "close enough" out to mid-range, but not really intended for true long range.

Using your stated difference of 3/4 MOA at 550 as an example, that's between 4 1/4 - 4 1/2 inches at that distance. By turning the earth-based effects off to get your wind number, you're effectively splitting that difference. (For example, the difference for me at the same distance is 3.3 vs 3.9 MOA; with effects turned off it's 3.6 for both). Whether that's close enough for your application I can't opine.

ETA: When I run the same exercise in my solver using MILS as my output, the difference between left and right wind with earth-based effetcts on is .1 mil (1.0 vs 1.1) using your scenario (on my gun). Quick wind with a 10 would be 1.0 (5 mph gun). So yeah, we're splitting hairs there.

Good explanation and examples for sure

 

[solarshooter]

I've read up on it. I still don't see how it accounts for wind direction. I am far less experienced or technical than most of you at long range. I typically input a rough generic wind in and compensate 1 way or another based on where I think the wind actually is. Typically 5mph and split the difference on direction difference. If I think its closer to 10mph, I double my #. If I have all the time in the world, I will input exact guessed wind and send it. My weakest link in LR is guessing wind across varying terrain. Shooting in different locations has helped me a ton, but I still do not consider myself a great wind caller.

I'll tell you my method, it may not be 100% perfect according to the experts but it has proven to work for me, at least within my abilities as a wind caller and a shooter. I'll start with the equation we're solving in our heads, broken up into terms intentionally to show how I think about the problem:

Wind hold in mils = (range/100)*(wind speed/rifle wind rating)*crosswind component

• Range/100 is what it sounds like, you can basically just round the range up or down to the nearest 100 and take that first digit. So 390 = 0.4, 220 = 0.2, 560 = 0.6 and so on. This is referred to as the "base", and it's what your wind hold in mils would be for a full value wind at the gun wind rating speed at this range (by definition of the gun wind rating).
• Wind speed is what it sounds like, your best guess of the wind. This could be a range of speeds such that you can bracket the error and hopefully center that error band on your target.
• Rifle wind rating is one number for your rifle/cartridge that you determine ahead of time using a solver, or estimate using some other tricks. So for my 284 it's a 7mph gun. I actually almost prefer my 6mph 6CM since it makes the mental math easier, but that's just me being weird. This number will also change with DA.
• Crosswind component is the cosine of the relative wind angle. I try to make this simple by using "oclock" directions, and either 0, 50%, 90%, 100% for (12,6), (1,5,7,11), (2,4,8,10), or (3,9) oclock respectively

I broke the terms in the equation up intentionally to show how I approach solving the problem. Fundamentally, it's my BASE multiplied by 2 factors, one after the other.

The first factor is what I call the "wind ratio", which is wind speed divided by rifle wind rating. All day while I'm walking around I'm constantly guessing wind speed and calculating my wind ratio. Direction doesn't matter yet, since we don't know which way we'll be shooting. This wind ratio number is always floating around in my head. So for example, I guess it's a steady 6mph breeze, and I'm carrying my 7mph gun, so my wind ratio would be 0.9. It might be 0.9 for 3 hours, then the wind changes or I crest a ridge and feel some new wind, and maybe I decide its a 9mph breeze, so I calculate a wind ratio of 1.2ish. It might be gusting up and down, so I might call my wind ratio anywhere from 1 to 1.2.

Now let's say I spot a target and I decide to shoot. After I set up my position I pull out my rangefinder, get a range, use my quickdrop math to get an elevation hold, and dial that on my scope. Then I move on to wind. While that range is still fresh in my head, I calculate my base, let's say it's a 420yd shot so my base is 0.4. Then I apply the first scaling term, the wind ratio. Using 1.2 from above that puts me at a 0.5 hold. Now I think about direction and pick my last scaling factor. Let's say I decide it's an 8 oclock wind, so I pick 0.9, and I end up with still 0.5, maybe shading 0.4.

Running real numbers for my 284 in this scenario of 3kft DA, 420yds, 9mph wind, 8oclock, the correct hold is 0.47mils.

As the shot conditions change, you can easily update this hold very quickly. You can re scale relative to your initial hold, or you can recalculate from scratch. I may have made it sound complex but I'm really trying to be precise with my writeup. In my mind, it goes like this:

420 is 0.4
0.4 times 1.2 is 0.5
0.5 times 0.9 is 0.45 call it 0.5
Wind died down by a third, pull it back to 0.3
Wind is switching more towards 7oclock, pull it back to 0.2

And so on and so forth.

 

[Formidilosus]

I just want to know where yall are killing animals in the mountains or broken terrain where the wind is constant, and blowing the same direction from you to the target..?

 

[solarshooter]

I just want to know where yall are killing animals in the mountains or broken terrain where the wind is constant, and blowing the same direction from you to the target..?

In some shot scenarios it seems like the wind is constant, but I've definitely had my ass kicked by different conditions down range I didn't account for. Especially up and down drafts. Are you getting at the fact that most apps/binos/RF solvers don't take inputs for multiple winds/directions at different ranges? Can you say more on how you approach it?