We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[BuckeyeRifleman]

I think it’s high time we start pushing states to reform their points systems. Though part of the issue with “point creep” is more people applying in certain states and regions, it’s mainly a basic math problem of too many points in the system that never get used.

Point systems were designed to “get your place in line” to draw a tag. The problem is you can buy points and NEVER apply, and this is how many people use the system. They buy their points for that “someday” hunt and never use them. As a result, the points required to actually hunt increase almost 1 for 1 every year in states like CO and WY. I’m not criticizing these folks, I do it to, because that’s the game.

The notable exception to this is the NR Montana general tag. You have to apply every year or you lose your points. This gets people out of the system and it actually works as intended. For the first time ever, point creep went slightly the other direction for the Montana general tag this year after the “apply or lose your points” rule went into effect.

IMO we need to implement a similar rule in other states like CO and WY where creep is out of control. If you don’t apply every year your points get zeroed out. I’m sure I will lose some points if this happens, but for the good of the system and the increased ability to actually hunt, I’d gladly do so.

I like to draw tags, not collect points I’ll never use. The only way it will ever change is if we lobby politicians to reform the system, because it’s a cash cow for the agencies. They love people buying points and never hunting, and nobody is going to quit buying and not applying out of a sense of altruism. That’s a sure way to lose and never hunt anyway.

I know there are a lot of threats to hunting we need to worry about… Wolves, trapping bans, etc etc. But if we can’t ever really hunt due to point creep, what’s the point?

Would love to hear other folks thoughts on this.

 

[butcherboy]

Simple fix. No point system at all. Random draw for all species. OIL tags for some species in certain units. It may take you 20 years to draw that one coveted tag but it’s no different than 26 years of points it may take to draw. The one difference is you will have at least a chance to draw. Or, once you draw for a particular species you can’t draw that one species in that state for at least 2-3 years. Despite NM’s stupid 10% outfitter pool and 6% diy NR system, it still has a great random draw. I have drawn OIL tags on my first try and OIL tags on a second choice first try. I have also not drawn a rifle mule deer tag in my own state for 24 years now.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Good luck, points are a cash cow for a lot of states.

What motivation for the states is there to reform it? Do they care?

For the record, I hate point systems.

 

[wapitibob]

As long as they buy points and don't apply, you'll never see them or suffer any affects. I also like to draw tags, that's why I buy points.

 

[Slugz]

Cut and paste below from a friend. Seems like CO is at least discussing the point creep issue and offering some half decent solutions. Hopefully they go forward with Pt#4





CPW Commissioner’s Meeting, March 14, 2024
Draw Process Working Group Recommendations on Primary Draw Methods & Preference Points


This meeting took place today and below are my notes on the key items discussed.
================================================================================


The Working Group considered these options:

• Random Draw (similar to how Desert Sheep is done)
• Preference Draw (similar to how Derr, Elk are done)
• Bonus Point Draw (Similar to Weighted Draw for Bighorn, Goat, Moose)
• Split Draw / Hybrid Draw: 1st Preference Draw then Random Draw (Like Hybrid Draw)
• Split Draw / Hybrid Draw: 1st Preference Draw then Bonus Draw (Currently Not Used)

Preliminary Recommendations (These are only Preliminary Recommendations, NOT decisions.)

1) ** For Deer, Elk, Pronghorn, Bear: Recommend changing from a pure Preference Point system to a Split Preference Draw & Bonus Draw (50/50 Split) for Deer, Elk, Bear, Pronghorn. (i.e. The first 50% of the tags would be a Preference Point Draw followed by a Bonus Draw for the remaining 50%.)

Note: Trophy Species (Sheep, Goat, Moose) will be discussed at next meeting.

Note: Secondary Draw still being discussed.

2) Allocation: 75/25 split for ALL Deer, Elk, Bear, Pronghorn (eliminates the High Demand 80/20 that was recently approved and not even implemented yet).

3) Youth Preference: Status Quo, 2nd Draw 100% Youth Preference.

4) Preference Points Options
A) **Use Points for ALL List A Licenses (All 4 Primary Choices would use & gain Points)
Eliminate the PP hunt Code; applicants must choose if they want PP only (can’t include other hunt choices) OR apply for a hunt code/license.
B) Use Points in the Secondary Draw.
Group Agreed NOT to do this.
C) Increase Cost of Points for ALL Species.
Group did NOT support this.

5) Point Banking: Use only the number of preference points needed to draw a particular license, Bank the rest of your points.
Group did NOT recommend this.

6) Group Averaging: Using an average of all group member’s preference points.
Group did NOT recommend this, concerned it would create a Market for Preference Points.

​

y sure

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Simple fix. Go to a bonus point. You have 10 bonus points, you get 10 entries. Everyone has a shot, state agencies still get their scratch.

Very simple.

 

[Fogalo]

If people were people were just buying points and sitting on them, there wouldn’t be point creep… point creep only occurs when more people with points apply.

 

[Lawnboi]

The govt needs to be okay not accepting free money. Points for non res are a huge cash cow.

Colorado forces you to buy a small game license just to get more money.

It’s become a money making game now.

 

[wapitibob]

If people were people were just buying points and sitting on them, there wouldn’t be point creep… point creep only occurs when more people with points apply.

Yep, but less than half actually apply for a hunt, the majority are buying and sitting. And after this years Elk draw, it appears even a price increase won't compel them to apply.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Simple fix. Go to a bonus point. You have 10 bonus points, you get 10 entries. Everyone has a shot, state agencies still get their scratch.

Very simple.

I don’t mind bonus point systems. That’s how Montana does it for LE tags and it works out ok.

 

[Jason Snyder]

If you run the math on high demand units with a bonus point system, your odds of drawing can actually decrease.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

If you run the math on high demand units with a bonus point system, your odds of drawing can actually decrease.

Ok, then choose preference point where your mathematical chance is zero for the first 15-20yrs.

Or choose a system that's random, albeit weighted, you still could draw.

It seems like a very easy choice, but maybe not.

 

[wapitibob]

If your chance is zero, pick another hunt. It's not that difficult if a person really wants to hunt.

 

[Maverick1]

 

[Jason Snyder]

Ok, then choose preference point where your mathematical chance is zero for the first 15-20yrs.

Or choose a system that's random, albeit weighted, you still could draw.

It seems like a very easy choice, but maybe not.

The easiest choice is no points.

 

[roadrunner]

I have yet to pull an antelope tag in NM. I pulled an antelope tag in UT last year because of points.

Utah has the best system for points. They just don't offer enough tags...

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

View attachment 716540
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If it’s make believe, why is CO looking reforming their system and we saw MT implement “apply or lose your points” a few years ago? We got some bad stuff with that (outfitter preference) but some of what changed was for our benefit.

We seem to forget that ultimately, the folks who make these decisions work for us. The systems can and do change.

 

[BRTreedogs]

If they reform it in any way they will have to increase cost else where.
There not giving up the money.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Implement the goat/sheep draw. The 3 points to play could be implemented on units that take 15 plus points to draw. Or leave them off. Easy peasy.

All preference points go bonus points in 2029, use them or don’t complain.

Or just cut the cord and go random, increase cost of license to offset the revenue lost by ditching PP.

 

[SDHNTR]

Points are not the problem. Too many people are the problem. It’s too easy to apply.

I’ve said this before, it’s a simple fix, front all tag and license money at the time of application and no credit cards. Just like anything else in life, you shouldn’t apply with money you don’t have. Draw odds would dramatically improve instantly.