Vote - MOA or MIL

[Formidilosus]

Ya, as long as the batteries don't go dead. And you can get people to turn off their brains a whole bunch. It all works.

I also forgot, what mph wind is your rigs? shouldn't

What are you talking about? A mil is used as 1/1,000 of any distance. It is not “metric”.

I know it's cool to try and nip a good thing in the bud by getting after the speaker rather than the message

No one is going after the speaker, you simply are ignorant about how each “system” is optimally used, or you are deliberately being misleading. It’s proven out every day demonstrably in scenarios and in places that measure and track hitting targets at distance, at speed.

 

[Formidilosus]

didn't insult me although I think that was the aim, you may have insulted a bunch of other folks however though, ignorant unskilled people will view their trajectories only from one perspective and not look at their path in 3d to known hardwiring and institutions? no students left, just here, go mil/ffp and it's what's right for everyone eh? little narrow don't ya think?

No, I didn’t insult anyone. Measuring succes in speed of hitting targets has unequivocally shown that using and thinking in angles, not linear distance as having a higher success rate. No one shoots faster or more accurately by holding over or under some indeterminate distance in “inches”, and holding left or right by some indeterminate distance in “inches”. Taking that farther, when using angular corrections, a base ten system is faster, more intuitive, and takes less brain power during stress than a quarter based system.

 

[z987k]

What are you talking about? A mil is used as 1/1,000 of any distance. It is not “metric”.

Guess I'm the idiot. I didn't know that. I thought it was metric. I'm MOA because most scopes are and I was too lazy to learn something new, or really the idea of having to remember what I'm using today. Keeping it simple.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Sweet. Since this is the Long Range hunting forum, please share what your long range hunting experience is?

didn't notice the faint at the back end of this, 620 on coyote, 521 on deer, happily practiced to 930 as many do but also happily keep things to well inside those outer practice limits for 'hunting' because, wait for it, I love hunting and even after 521 deer I thought how silly, nice to be prepared but that was zero fun

judge away, won't bother me a bit, my walls and freezer will run with anyone, my prs accolades will nil however so anyones will likely be longer on those bragging rights

seems I've touched a nerve today lol...bring it on beeatches

was speaking for some of the others here and how they too like to rationalize in 3d to known hardwiring...but I'll take the slings and arrows, just make sure you've got a longer coyote then me then I'll bow down lol

 

[Stinky Coyote]

No, I didn’t insult anyone. Measuring succes in speed of hitting targets has unequivocally shown that using and thinking in angles, not linear distance as having a higher success rate. No one shoots faster or more accurately by holding over or under some indeterminate distance in “inches”, and holding left or right by some indeterminate distance in “inches”. Taking that farther, when using angular corrections, a base ten system is faster, more intuitive, and takes less brain power during stress than a quarter based system.

I may use a system you disapprove of for what I currently do 0-600 and I'll argue with you all day about who will be faster into the kill zone but you're making assumptions that was my implication here in these past few posts. Each guy practiced with his gear will be very quick.

I never said in these last posts to 'hold' anything, just comparing angular measurements to most of our hardwiring...that's it. If you want to be accurate at the big league distances you'll wanna use either on the angular for more accuracy, take your pic, hold .2 mil or 1.5 moa or whatever is your chosen flavour.

Many find it helpful to understand a 1000 yard shot is about 20' holdover or the length of their pickup truck and 5 mph wind might be about 4-5'....visualizing that arc...I didn't actually math that, just going off recollections for example purpose but the holdover is very close to that for many cartridges used right now.

Just another example of 3d understandings and getting really intimate with ballistics at all levels. It adds up to what you could do if you had to and a bunch of things quit or weren't available to you when you needed or for straight up fun while playing on the range. Practice only makes you better. You'd likely be surprised to see what a guy could do who knows his flight path intimately with hardly any compensation aids at all. Getting all reliant on some non hardwired system is all well and fine for many and great for the range work. It never had to be mil however, still doesn't need to be, there was another more institutionalized system already at play. What are they teaching in American schools these days? Have they gone metric? Maybe it is the better choice for the kids lol. But some of us older farts seem just fine with moa. Are they slamming mil the same rate as mil guys slam moa though?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

ooh, did you get me on the metric?, semantics, 10 cm at 100m is pretty facking metric, not sure what would qualify more, lets not get off in the weeds

 

[Justin Crossley]

I hope everyone here understands the difference between ignorant and stupid.

I can admit that I'm ignorant about a lot of things but I'm also smart enough to listen to people who just might be able to teach me things.

 

[Stu]

ooh, did you get me on the metric?, semantics, 10 cm at 100m is pretty facking metric, not sure what would qualify more, lets not get off in the weeds

I think the greater point here is that if you think in terms of angular measurement, which you can always reference by simply looking at your reticle, the units you choose become arbitrary. You can use a centimeter, 3.6 inches, or 2.3 tiddlywinks at 100 yards/meters if you want to convey linear spreads. It doesn't matter. And evaluation of what the bullet is doing at any given distance doesn't require math while still providing the information required to assess precision/accuracy/required adjustments.

 

[z987k]

ooh, did you get me on the metric?, semantics, 10 cm at 100m is pretty facking metric, not sure what would qualify more, lets not get off in the weeds

Eh, after reading on it myself, it's very much not metric. It's simply base 1000, but in any unit. The unit is irrelevant. It's 1 inch at 1000 inches, 1 foot at 1000ft, 1 yard at 1000 yards or 1 mile at 1000 miles. The metric system is also base 10 so it works out real even when changing units within that system.

The only reason it doesn't work well at 100yd is because inches doesn't go into yards evenly. It does if you keep the units the same though, just keep the meausement in yards. It's .1yards at 100 yards.

Minutes also aren't SAE. It's a universal measurement within circles. There's not a metric version of degrees, minutes, seconds (that anyone even engineers uses). There actually is, but it's unheard and not intuitive because circles are base pie not 10.
Radians also are not metric.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I hope everyone here understands the difference between ignorant and stupid.

I can admit that I'm ignorant about a lot of things but I'm also smart enough to listen to people who just might be able to teach me things.

very familiar with the definitions, 'not knowing' plenty of that out there, it's been assumed that has been the case at play here with me more than once, I think it has more to do with my style though, neither ignorant nor stupid, wicked smaht, devilishly handsome and packin 1.7 mils of hide your wives lol

uh...my point has been to make sure ALL the info and perspectives available to ensure minimum ignorance among all this amazingness , it gets a little one sided at times, mil bullies

 

[Stu]

very familiar with the definitions, 'not knowing' plenty of that out there, it's been assumed that has been the case at play here with me more than once, I think it has more to do with my style though, neither ignorant nor stupid, wicked smaht, devilishly handsome and packin 1.7 mils of hide your wives lol

uh...my point has been to make sure ALL the info and perspectives available to ensure minimum ignorance among all this amazingness , it gets a little one sided at times, mil bullies

My perspective is that neither Form, myself, or anyone else advocating for one side of this current discussion is bullying anyone else. It would be one thing if most people on this forum grew up with mils and stuck to it simply because of familiarity or dogma. I suspect most like me came from minutes initially and don't care or take personally what someone else does. Doesn't make us right, just food for thought on an information medium supposedly meant for the sharing of information and discussion.

 

[Formidilosus]

Guess I'm the idiot.

Not at all. Being ignorant about something is very different than being an idiot. I’m ignorant of lots of things.

I didn't know that. I thought it was metric.

It’s metric in that mil-radian is a base ten system and so is metric, however Mil is base ten of any linear distance. A mil measures 1 yard at 1,000 yards, 1 meter at 1,000 meters, 1 inch at 1,000 inches, 1 parsec at 1,000 parsecs; mil-radian is independent of any systems itself.

 

[Formidilosus]

I hope everyone here understands the difference between ignorant and stupid.

Very correct. I know that I tend to write dry and clinically- I don’t mean any offense.

I am ignorant of lots of things; the reason that I discuss mil/MOA as I do isn’t to prove a point, it’s because I was the person confused and ignorant of the differences and use and was quite annoyed that others made it so confusing.

 

[Clarktar]

Very correct. I know that I tend to write dry and clinically- I don’t mean any offense.

I am ignorant of lots of things; the reason that I discuss mil/MOA as I do isn’t to prove a point, it’s because I was the person confused and ignorant of the differences and use and was quite annoyed that others made it so confusing.

I'm still in the MOA camp and am looking for some examples of how MIL is better, more intuitive, faster, etc.... Someone mentioned a podcast I think? Or is there a another thread I can go spend time reading and cogitating on?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Reburn]

I was ignorant about moa vs mils until it was expained to me here.

Mils for use in the wind.

I also thought my leupold scopes were great and everyone needed to verify zero and adjust compulsively.

I was wrong there as well.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

oh holy crap, is it hug time? you guys trying to catching me in the feelers?

now i gotta confess to also having a rather distinct approach, maybe sometimes I do mean offence but probably mostly not. Like Form. (there's a emoticon right for here to convey the shit eating grin usually on my face when on forum but I only know a couple here)

not sure I agree that it's complicating something simple?(this thread suggests the possibility it's more dynamic), people do still equate linear with angular as the result from poa to poi is both, at the target end where the bullet actually lands vs where it was aimed at is a linear measure, and many brains are going to rationalize that out against the in flight angular etc. and our different brains are going to be trying to rationalize all these things down to the most basic interpretations and perspectives possible...well that's my take anyway, could you just grab a mi/ffp and whoop ass everywhere, yup that would be simple and no need to understand much more, let the electronics do the math and your bro over your should tell you where to hold what and send it, and moa based setup used the same

do my best to only engage in topics I'm not ignorant in also, hate being the one legged man in the ass kicking contests, I may be behind in the terminologies of the moment and wordy af but still think pretty highly of myself

 

[Antares]

Dear @Stinky Coyote,

Please consider switching to decaf.

Sincerely,
Everyone

 

[Stinky Coyote]

You're not next level sense of humour if you didn't get that. Catch up fackers

You don't think I have humility? Gosh, can't believe y'all can't read that through text.

Hang in there, you'll get me eventually. I own my own shizzo. Gotta have some fun if it can't always be in the field. It can be here too.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

My perspective is that neither Form, myself, or anyone else advocating for one side of this current discussion is bullying anyone else.

sense of humour, shall I poll to see what percentage of the audience here got that one? C'mon...mil bullies is funny, no one really took that seriously did they?

 

[Lawnboi]

Is it meme time yet?